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 Post subject: Re: Sure I'll stop- IF....
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:11 am 
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DO.g's wrote:
Either Bush claims it is one way or another is irrelevant- it's what it represents and does, that matters. Bully for you if you can excuse it.

READING COMPREHENSION.

"Chrisitanity is not even remotely what Bush claims it is" is an excuse for Bush?

It is a statement that YOU are caricaturing 90% of Americans, it is not an excuse.

You are claiming that 90% of Americans are idiots, hypocrites, and hateful.

Do you really stand by that claim?

Quote:
It is self hypocritical in what it asks as in the eye of the needle example. Sotek, would you give away your wealth and security for what Jebus says is your only real way to heaven. I think not. But You claim to believe what he says, all of it.
Jesus did not say it was impossible for a rich man to enter heaven.

That said, in fact, if and when I get a signfiicant amount of money, I have plans for that money, which involve my efforts to IMPROVE things.

What would YOU do if you got a significant chunk of change?


Quote:
We have a chance now to go beyond the rhetoric.
How? You don't want to understand what my position is, you just want to attack Christians, and thus want to pidgeonhole me so that you can do so.

Until you manage to articulate what my position ACTUALLY IS, you are debating a strawman, and I am going to call you on it.


Quote:
You want to call it off, fine- there are plenty of more serious issues to pursue and christianity should just be completely forgotten, except that most people can't let go of their crutch.
Whereas yours is apparently attacking Chrisitanity.

If you wish to engage in mudslinging while calling for an end to mudslinging, well...
... I'll let that speak for itself.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:34 am 
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sotek...you're really getting boring with your word-for-word, phrase-by-phrase attempts to argue a point. you type alot of words but say nothing except to repeat yourself over and over again.

you're the reason why people get turned off by christians. you may not be a fundamantalist, but you are close to being one. in fact, you haven't convinced me you are not.

you dislike bush? big deal....that doesn't make you shine any more as a christian.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:55 pm 
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mga wrote:
sotek...you're really getting boring with your word-for-word, phrase-by-phrase attempts to argue a point. you type alot of words but say nothing except to repeat yourself over and over again.
And since I do so in response to you people, what's that saying about what YOU'RE saying?

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you're the reason why people get turned off by christians. you may not be a fundamantalist, but you are close to being one.
Really? Please do explain this.
What are the characteristics of fundamentalists that I have? Because this statement of yours makes me wonder if you're confusing me with other people or something.

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in fact, you haven't convinced me you are not.
Have I also failed to convince you I'm not a lizard alien working for Xenu?

Surely someone as logical as you ralizes where the burden of proof lies.

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you dislike bush? big deal....that doesn't make you shine any more as a christian.
M'kay. So how do I fail to shine? Have any specifics, if you wish to claim I'm a "bad Christian"?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:39 pm 
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sheesh...i rest my case.

you've just proven my point.

your relentless drive to prove something about your faith, or your need to argue for it, is no different than a fundamentalist. i am certainly not confused about you...we seem to have you pegged fairly accurately.

lizard? again another pointless remark..or do you just like to see your words in type?

again, a debate on an issue is one thing, but you aren't debating, you're just running your mouth.

i still have no clue as to what point you are attempting to make here, or what you are attempting to prove or disprove. again, you make no sense at all.

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 Post subject: A POINT IN ALL DIRECTIONS IS NO POINT AT ALL.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:20 pm 
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His point is that if he lets go of his crutch, he'll fall over and have to rethink everything pointless in his life. What a waste of an education choice he made. When he could have done so much for humanity, he wastes it on some useless god belief.

Plus the fact that he feels obligated to get the last word in.

Prosthelitising and all.

Yeah, I'm sure it's really easy for someone to crawl through a needles eye. On the molecular scale.

Make it up as you need to.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:27 pm 
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true, DO.g's, afterall, isn't religion just another crutch for those who can't make it thru life on their own? no different than the heroin addict.

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 Post subject: speaking of prophets.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:32 pm 
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Yea, verily O prophetic one, thou speakest truths beyond their meagre comprehension, mga.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:45 pm 
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mga wrote:
your relentless drive to prove something about your faith, or your need to argue for it, is no different than a fundamentalist.

Pray tell, what am I trying to prove about Christianity?
That it's not the cause of all evils? Yeah, I guess so.

Is that what fundies belivee? Just that Christians aren't always evil? Because that's the sum total of my desired point here.

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lizard? again another pointless remark..or do you just like to see your words in type?
If you think it's pointless, then you've obviously not understood the point of my comparison, which was that you were asking me to prove a negative.
Burden of proof; you should be proving the affirmative.

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again, a debate on an issue is one thing, but you aren't debating, you're just running your mouth.
Because I don't have any actual points from you or DO.g's to respond to, just flagrant insults.

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i still have no clue as to what point you are attempting to make here, or what you are attempting to prove or disprove. again, you make no sense at all.
Have I clarified my point enough now?

Christianity is no more evil than Atheism, and attacking people simply for being Christians is exceptionally counterproductive.

Those are my two main points in this discussion.

You and DO.g's, with your vaguely-related ad hominem attacks, have turned it into a discussion of if I can be a moral person or not, and you seem to claim that it's inherently impossible.

So. Is it now sufficiently clear, or should I be getting a high-schooler to rewrite it for you?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:47 pm 
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mga wrote:
true, DO.g's, afterall, isn't religion just another crutch for those who can't make it thru life on their own? no different than the heroin addict.


Which is why I was an athiest for over a decade, right?

'cause, y'know, I need a crutch and all.


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 Post subject: Sotek be reborn again-please- Give it up.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:36 am 
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Jesus you're boring us to death and you're stupid beyond belief.

Religion divides us, while it is our human characteristics that bind us to each other.

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.

I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on everything they can get.

Superstition is the religion of feeble minds.

Babble about 'The wages of sin' serves to cover up 'the sin of wages'. We
want rights, not rites -- sex, not sects. Only Eros and Eris belong in our
pantheon. Surely the Nazarene necrophile has had his revenge by now.
Remember, pain is just God's way of hurting you.

Some heathens whose Idol was greatly weatherworn threw it into a
river, and erecting a new one, engaged in public worship at its base.
'What is this all about?' inquired the New Idol.
'Father of Joy and Gore,' said the High Priest, 'be patient and I
will instruct you in the doctrines and rites of our holy religion.'
A year later, after a course of study in theology, the Idol asked
to be thrown into the river, declaring himself an atheist.
'Do not let that trouble you,' said the High Priest -- 'so am I.

Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

Religion, n: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the Nature of the Unknowable.

Scriptures: The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.

Religions are conclusions for which the facts of nature supply no major premises.

As a man can drink water from any side of a full tank, so the skilled
theologian can wrest from any scripture that which will serve his purpose.

About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had
earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican
hill ... Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis
(the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He
was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was
reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday
and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:15 pm 
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Funny, DO.g's, how you SUPPORT MY POINT.

You say religion divides - I say you're contributing to the religious division.

I say you're engaging in ad-hominem attacks - you call me "stupid beyond belief".


I say that many of those who call themselves Christians do not act as Christians ... and you say it too.


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 Post subject: Jesus you're boring us to death& you're stupid beyond be
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:11 pm 
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I think I said Jebus was boring and stupid beyond belief. What are you, stupid? I'm not going to engage in a redundant pointless pursuit of why you have to believe the stupid white logic of this world. Whatever your pointless reasons for belief, they come from an empty place only you try to fill.

What I'm saying is that religion is the problem- it teaches people to believe in an US vs THEM philosophy which is natural for bigoted self centered dominant cultures to naturally believe. It is an intolerant theory that won't allow or tolerate people being different. You yourself said it best when you admitted that you can't help it if you're attracted to tits- THIS SAME ARGUMENT CAN BE USED TO EXPLAIN WHY PEOPLE ARE GAY. They can't explain why they are attracted to the same sex- they just ARE. The reason Bush pushes the marriage issue as for the opposite sex's only, is because if the gays were accepted as normal then they wouldn't have to hide what they are and it would be found out that they can just as easily and correctly raise children normally; more normally than straights raise their children to be angr,y hate filled bigoted assholes. There wouldn't be these hate filled jealous fear filled children if the straights were doing it right. OK so not all straights raise their children wrong, some have risen above the hate filled religious doctrines of fear and beatings to force authority on their children, but not the asshole christian idealisms. You asswipes think that if you're gay, transvestite, different religion, ablest, are possessed by demons- and why they are certain ways when everywhere they are condemned for what they can't help being. Patterns are what our brain sees and it seeks structure while at the same time it restricts freedom of thought through rules and immoral activity placed upon it like a burden by the imposition odf said rules of confduct which goes completely against human nature and the naturaL wotrld. You wish us to return to a feudal tpye system of resteaints that encompass your pathetic fears and allusuions.- to be condemned by rules and restraints to what is natural. It's fucking chemicals in the brain that make us what we are. It's out of ours and gODs hands.

What is that defining moment that drove you back to a time in you're life where fear is all you knew- That feeling of loss, fear and loneiliness- fight/flight that overpowered your sense of belonging ,acceptance and security- the counter to fears- when you needed the crutch to support your weakness. You felt the lucrative need to settle your issues of fear and abandonment to help you overcome your obvious lack of control. Fear the great mind killer got you. This is usually from triggers of your childhood powerlessness, of a primal fear. If you can findthat moment, you can locate what it is about yourself that is an inadequacy. Is it because you hate being told you are wrong about your beliefs that stimulates your need to prove through something that seems impervious to disputation that you cling so much tighter to your strawman Jebus/gOD beliefs??? Religion truly makes victims of us, you know, forgiving victims the meek shall inherit nonsense. You lie to yourself as much as your religion lies to you and your basis for truth is in the foundations of bigotry, self centered, egotistical, hypocritic dogma. The chains that bind your mind are the restraints that keep you from growing as a human of the NATURAL world.

If we're to teach our children anything about love, teach them to love and respect NATURE.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus you're boring us to death& you're stupid beyon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:28 pm 
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DO.g's wrote:
I think I said Jebus was boring and stupid beyond belief. What are you, stupid?
Funny, the way you said it was as if using "Jesus" as a curse, the way most people in our society do, and if you were addressing it to Jesus, it only makes sense if you really do believe Christianity.

Nice way to play with subtle rhetorical traps, but come on.

Quote:
It is an intolerant theory that won't allow or tolerate people being different.
And I'm saying it can.
Quote:
You yourself said it best when you admitted that you can't help it if you're attracted to tits- THIS SAME ARGUMENT CAN BE USED TO EXPLAIN WHY PEOPLE ARE GAY.
Dude, no shit.
I was using that argument for that precise reason.

I was saying and do say that homosexuals are that way because God made them that way, so we should not persecute them for being that way.



And YOU'RE insulting MY intelligence?

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You asswipes think that if you're gay, transvestite, different religion, ablest, are possessed by demons-
I don't think that.

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What is that defining moment that drove you back to a time in you're life where fear is all you knew- That feeling of loss, fear and loneiliness- fight/flight that overpowered your sense of belonging ,acceptance and security- the counter to fears- when you needed the crutch to support your weakness.
There isn't one.
Stop trying to analyze me through your twin filters of bigotry and preconceptions.

You say it was a "defining moment"; it wasn't. It was several months of slow drift.

You say it was due to "loss, fear, and loneiliness(sic)" ... it wasn't.

You claim I lost my sense of "belonging, acceptance, and security" ... as I was getting ready to marry the woman who is now my wife. (and a new-agey "buddhist" flake, to boot)


I know how I drifted into belief, and you are nowhere near close to guessing it, as your preconceptions blind you.

Quote:
If we're to teach our children anything about love, teach them to love and respect NATURE.
Amen to that.


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 Post subject: Lying, cheating, twit, spewing strawmans' shit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:23 am 
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"The self-assured believer is a greater sinner in the eyes of gOD than the troubled disbeliever". Kierkegaard


Like big deal, from a moron who thinks he's better than all the other morons. Like I said you christians are all the same- one thinks he's better than the rest because of the ignorance of facts. Ones ignorance is better than the others. I think in the end I said "what are you Stupid" Well stupid is as stupid does, and I see you are stupid. In the brain of every religious person there is a god shaped vacuum. There is some kind of mental blockage in your brain from being so anal that your shit is spewing out your mouth. I think you were in that South Park episode where they proved that if an asshole is fed shit, shit flows out its mouth. Great episode. It should be made clear that in order to live a Christian life, any Christian must be able to discriminate and hate, because that's what the bible says.

To Believe without evidence and demonstration is an act of ignorance and folly. All I get from you is words. You can't prove any actions are real, that you are the person you claim to be. You're just a scared little child who wants to hide his reality from view behind a veil of lies.

Here's my definition of gOD. Man is a d.OG's ideal of what g.OD's should be.

The best way to lose all credibility, is to cling with desperation to that which cannot possibly be sustained literally. Literalistic christians will learn that a gOD or a faith system that has to be defended daily is finally no gOD or faith system at all. They will learn that any god who can be killed ought to be killed. Ultimately they will discover that all their claims to
represent the historical, traditional, or biblical truth of christianity,
cannot stop the advance of knowledge that will render every historic claim
for a literal religious system questionable at best, null and void at worst. And the son of gOD died, which is immediately credible, because it is absurd. And buried he rose again, which is certain because it is impossible.
As for love, every religion in the world that has destroyed people is based on love.

As for gays. The fundies are swearing up and down that gayness is a crime against gOD. But just because you think your lone voice in the wilderness is a deterrent, well don't delude yourself into thinking that. You are culpable by association, with your own inner problems and lack of vision you become a victim of a world view. You said it Sot. It would be an insult to say that you exercise intelligence.

What about abortion. The latest statistics are indicating that since they have been legalised in America that youth violence is going down. It has been attributed to the fact that unwanted pregnancies are down and these unwanted children from broken homes, orphanages and adopted parents aren't doing the youth crimes, not to the work of laws or police.

ROONEY: "Did you really seriously worry about going to prison?"
KEVORKIAN: "No! Never! Am I a criminal? The world knows I'm not a criminal!
What are they trying to put me in jail for? You've lost common sense in
this society because of religious fanaticism and dogma. You're basing your
laws, and your whole outlook on natural life, on mythology! It won't work!
That's why you have all these problems in the world. Name them -- India,
Pakistan, Ireland. Name them! All these problems -- they're all religious
problems!"
[Dr. Jack Kevorkian, with Andy Rooney on "60 Minutes"]

The reason Bush pushes the marriage issue as for the opposite sex's only, is because if the gays were accepted as normal then they wouldn't have to hide what they are and it would be found out that they can just as easily and correctly raise children normally; more normally than straights raise their children, to be angry, hate filled bigoted assholes. There wouldn't be these hate filled jealous fear filled children if the straights were doing it right. The history of man is well documented where Womyn in communities raise children with more respect than the modern formula. they grow up having respect for womyn and their mothers.

There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, fights, malignant
opposition, persecution, and war, and all evil in the state, as religion.
There has never been a successful civilization that existed under the strict rules of religion and so religion is not a valid excuse for conformity, and so, should be eliminated. If the liberties of the American people are ever destroyed, they will fall by the hands of the clergy. There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages. You wish us to return to the dark ages all for the sake of your whorey gory god.

Today, Jesus' name is used to divide us, to make us intolerant, bigoted, hateful. There is nowhere Jesus could be born today were he would feel comfortable. Jesus is being betrayed by the people who claim to believe in him. You are weak and dependant on denial of reality. The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike. You are a sleepwalker who is asleep. Like I said Sot, dream on. Your life is a dream.

If you don't think that logic is a good method for determining what to believe, make an attempt to convince me of that without using logic. No one has even bothered to try yet. Here is some logic for you to sort out.

God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If this was the only way they could understand the difference between good and evil, how could they have known that it was wrong to disobey god and eat the fruit?

You make me realise what a person with deep rooted childhood problems can do to convince himself that he can hide behind a web of lies and a false gOD to convince himself that there is a purpose to his life. Give it up Sotek Be re/re/reborn back to atheistic sanity.

There were honest people long before there were christians and there are, gOD be praised, still honest people where there are no christians. It
could therefore easily be possible that people are christians because
true christianity corresponds to what they would have been even if
christianity did not exist. I'm a born-again atheist. I want the man bearing the cross to be its only victim. It is in the book of man, not the book of gOD, that we must look for examples of heroism, love, pity, justice, truth, honor, humanity.


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 Post subject: Re: rhetorical foul play
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:20 am 
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DO.g's wrote:
As for gays. The fundies are swearing up and down that gayness is a crime against gOD. But just because you think your lone voice in the wilderness is a deterrent, well don't delude yourself into thinking that. You are culpable by association, with your own inner problems and lack of vision you become a victim of a world view. You said it Sot. It would be an insult to say that you exercise intelligence.
You've convinced me!
I think that homosexuality is fine.

Quote:
What about abortion. The latest statistics are indicating that since they have been legalised in America that youth violence is going down. It has been attributed to the fact that unwanted pregnancies are down and these unwanted children from broken homes, orphanages and adopted parents aren't doing the youth crimes, not to the work of laws or police.
You've convinced me! I now support first-trimester abortions!


Quote:
The reason Bush pushes the marriage issue as for the opposite sex's only, is because if the gays were accepted as normal then they wouldn't have to hide what they are and it would be found out that they can just as easily and correctly raise children normally; more normally than straights raise their children, to be angry, hate filled bigoted assholes.
You've convinced me!

Oh wait, no you haven't.

Homosexuals are just as capable of being bigots as straight people.

Their children will be no worse, but they will also be no better.

They will simply be human.

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You wish us to return to the dark ages all for the sake of your whorey gory god.
"Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's."
Y'know that quote? Yeah, see.

Quote:
Today, Jesus' name is used to divide us, to make us intolerant, bigoted, hateful.
AND YOU ARE HELPING.

And your insulting thoughtless stealing ways will never convince me I could be a better person by changing my beliefs (ignoring the fundamental impossibilities of doing so.)


Quote:
If you don't think that logic is a good method for determining what to believe, make an attempt to convince me of that without using logic. No one has even bothered to try yet. Here is some logic for you to sort out.
I never said I didn't think that.
On the other hand, you apparently do, or you'd be an agnostic, as you know full well.

There is no disproof of the supernatural. There never will be. There never can be, by definition.





Idly, I'm amused you described your own words as "Lying, cheating, twit, spewing strawmans' shit".
Honestly, do you need vulgarity to make your points when you're not stealing other's words?


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