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 Post subject: I linked this
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:37 pm 
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I added a link to this on the news page. It will be in tomorrow's email.

Welcome to the board!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:42 pm 
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alonzo.....

i'm going to start attending the church you go to. :)

great post (again)

but, why is it that the men who sat down and thought about the constitution and the bill of rights seem to be wiser than man today?

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 Post subject: Re: I linked this
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:00 pm 
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Jesse wrote:
I added a link to this on the news page. It will be in tomorrow's email.

Welcome to the board!


Thanks for the warning.

I should go back and correct a few of those typographical errors.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:42 pm 
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Alonzo,

I posted your editorial here: http://oldamericancentury.org/bb/index. ... topic=4006

I referenced your website, too.


Catherine

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 Post subject: Bush is a god loving bigot.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:14 am 
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Hey Alonzo
Of course you're right about the constitution thing. In the next line from the site I used was- "In these memorable words of the American Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson set forth a fundamental principle upon which democratic government is founded. Governments in a democracy do not grant the fundamental freedoms enumerated by Jefferson; governments are created to protect those freedoms that every individual possesses by virtue of his or her existence."

Just a little error for not including that.

I have been having problems with my computer lately and I had a grandiose speech all typed out that included references to mans nurture principles and natures laws, when I was typing "We the" - and the whole thing disappeared. I sometimes think I have gremlins in my harddrive dressed in black with sunglasses. Not paranoid, but that don't mean they ain't out to git ya. Anyway, after an hour of searching the Bill of Rights, Constitution and Declaration, I was a little fed up and put together the short version about Bushies obvious misinterpretation of the Declaration I quoted.

As you say It may be a principle for all the people of the world, but by Bush implying the one god of the Hebrews it becomes a smaller, shall we say whiter more clinical view to the rest of the world. I had built a fine argument and some wonderful solutions to the limited view of Bush and the neo cons that would enlist the problems of post modernity and globalization to develop a new constitution to include the equal rights and fair justice for all of all the people of earth, assessing that the declaration and ensuing documents didn't really apply any longer as they fit into the needs of the people in 1776. This being 2000+ it is time to engage all the people of the world into a form of equality and fairness that applies to every country and each individual. Don't forget that when the American Constitution was being written, slavery was legal, and although they blamed Great Britain for its implementation, states like Virginia had to be appeased and so the document was Inalienably written with a white viewpoint as to ensure that the concerns of as many states were included. Now Virginia was the 14th state, but most of the founding fathers were slave owners and each state wanted protections to its assumed needs. They were in the process of nation building, and needed 100% participation or there would be seperation and division. Indeed when Lincoln stated his stance on slavery, such a division happened. We know that there were other reasons for the civil war, economics, and expansionism into the west. Diversions from the issues were the slavery emancipationism, but free labor for the south did give them some economic advantage.

In 1800, then Virginia Governor James Monroe dealt forcibly with an abortive slave revolt near Richmond. The Virginians were all too painfully aware of parallels between the revolt of the slaves and their own revolution. One of the rebels declared at his trial:

"I have nothing more to offer than what Washington would have had to offer, had he been taken by the British and put to trial. I have adventured my life in endeavoring to obtain the liberty of my countrymen, and am a willing sacrifice in their cause." (Egerton, page 102)

Obviously this was an embarrassment to the leaders then, for the slave was right. As a matter of discourse, slavery has never been a successful method of growth and every nation that has encorporated it has fallen. This was an inevitable fate the south would have felt, so the emancipation proclamation was an inevitability. Better to have slaves that don't know they're slaves. Call them free and exploit them. This is Pharoah Bushies view.

I think we agree on all points as well as the nature/nurture theories. We also agree whole heartedly on the fact that there is no place in the declaration that gives Bush permission to push his god agenda, especially by stacking the judiciary to adjust the scales of justice in his favor.

Sorry for the mixup on the declaration/constitution thing, and once again, welcome. Damn machines. I had such a nice thing going and POOF- gone. Gonna get this off before the gremlins return.

Oh and BTW, I view the creator term along the lines of the First Nations view of our earth as the creator. By implying that, to me it means our forefathers and the earth mother who is responsible for all creation. So as you say, creator and created follow each other in their natural order. God is merely a meme to satisfy our need to know.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:41 am 
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There were some excellent discussions in the RELIGION forum a few weeks ago about whether the bible was a good moral guide or not, and whether or not the so-called ten commandments are good moral guides. In fact, only three of the commandments have any relevance to American law: homicide, theft, and perjury. The phrase "Golden Rule" doesn't appear in the bible, either. Neither does the famous "do unto others" wording. What Jesus was reported to have said is this: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12). The author of Luke relates it this way: "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)

Other religions have lists of laws, too. Buddhism has the "Ten Precepts" for example.

According to an excellent book entitled Losing Faith in Faith by Dan Barker, Matthew's version appears to "parallel an earlier wording of the same idea by Rabbi Hillel in 10 AD: "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary." (Talmoud, Shabbat, 31a)

There are also similar references in Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism.

I find it very interesting that the Bushies expound so much on their Christianity, yet they have broken every one of their ten commandments at one time or another during the last five years....yet Bush and his henchmen continue to be revered and yes, even BELIEVED by far too many people, even after its been proven over and over again that the Bushies are all a pack of liars. Cognitive Dissonance in its purest form!

Alonzo wrote:

Quote:
As for the Declaration of Independence, please note that this was meant as a persuasive document. A quality of a good persuasive document is that it appeals to what motivates people with a wide range of views.


Now, we have the Patriot Act, doing an outstanding job of what it's supposed to do: Persuade us to give up our liberties so we can feel "safe." That's a hoot...in my opinion, considering all that has happened since Bush came to the presidency, we've never been less safe since America won its independence from Britain.

Quote:
The Declaration of Independence was written to respect all views -- those who believed in the laws of nature, and those who believed in God -- those who believed in a divine creator, and those who believed in accident.


There's an excellent little book entitled The Signers by Dennis Brindell Fadin which tells the stories of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, all 56 of them. If you've ever read the story behind how the DOI came about, and how close it came to being defeated, you would probably marvel (like I did) at the amazing series of events that occurred over a twenty-four hour period in July of 1776 that enabled the nation's "birth certificate" to be accepted and adopted.

Sam Adams could be considered another Karl Rove in his ability to manipulate and control others from behind the scenes.

References: Losing Faith in Faith, by Dan Barker and The Signers by Dennis Fadin.

Catherine

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"Democrats work to help people who need help.
That other party, they work for people who don't need help.
That's all there is to it."

~Harry S. Truman


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 Post subject: Was America a gift?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:02 pm 
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Perhaps the whole concept of the DOI is an example of an early conspiracy theory, a collaboration between Britain and the colonists elite to actually keep the European countries and their expansionist idealism from influencing the direction the "colony" was to develop. Not long before 1776 the British had defeated france in Quebec and King George 3rd had written the agreement with the natives about expansion, in 1763. With all the wars in Europe and if Britain was to spearhead an expansion into Americas heartland, events like the Louisiana purchase, American's claim of manifest destiny and the purchase of Alaska would not have been possible.

While Britain dealt with Napoleon and European wars, American subjects, still loyal to their British masters were given carte blanche to stumble forward into nationhood. Even the war of 1812 could have been a secret design to pit native against native in an attempt to weaken. The battle around Fort Detroit between British and American forces was ingenious. Joseph Brant had been given guarantees by the British that if he supported and aided them, then his land would be signed to him by treaty. As the battle was about to commence, the British soldiers turned and fled, leaving Brant to defend his land alone. This effectively eliminated the Indian claims in that area and it wasn't long before colonists on both sides of the border took over that important area of America.

After Britain gave independance to the colonists in 1776,( they were a superpower then) why was America still collecting taxes and paying the British government? Were they obligated by secret accord to pay this duty for the right to ignore the decree of 1763, and expand into the greatest most powerful country in the world by a clever vision of the true wealth of the ownership of the American continent? A clever ruse that on the surface gave the appearance of conflict, when in reality the two powers were in agreement, and still to this day continue this reciprocal accord to ensure their control of the worlds raw and manufactured resources? Conspiracy theory or conspiratorial fact?

As for Bush and his 10 commandments; in a country that espoused equality, the best way to beat him may be to use the constitution against him. Allow the commandments to be displayed only if the "laws" from other beliefs were placed next to them, as a comparison of parallel development, around the world. If America has freedom of religion, it should be all religions. Imagine the 10 commandments beside the Koran, Bhagwadgita, Buddhist texts, Book of the Dead, Confuscianism, Wiccan, Sikh, etc. as a real example of Americas commitment to freedom and equality. Live the example that you preach.

If you can't beat him, force him to honor the ideals of democracy and the laws of the land.


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