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 Post subject: Saddam Trials....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:07 pm 
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we're all well aware that saddam has started his trial, and the crime he's accused of goes back to the 1980's in which he's accused of having 142 people killed.

many want to see him hung for his alleged crimes, and i've read many replies in forums by alot of people who want him shot, hung, gassed or whatever.

after years of arguing with pro-war people, who have been telling me that the reason we invaded iraq was to "liberate those poor iraqi people" and to spead democracy and freedom to show the world it can be done in an arab state.

this "patriotic propaganda" was garnished with red white and blue, flag waving, yellow magnets, apple pie eating, family values, christian, hang a flag from your house and car, type of people who adamantly claimed we were speading democracy, and in the end, they want a simple good old american type of lynching as a final end to their "victory". what a bunch of crap.

now, how fuckin hypocritical is that?? even some who claim to be "liberals" have said the same thing: hang him without a trial.

if those people were truly americans who believed in true american values, they would demand a fair trial for saddam. i am not saying he is a saint, but under american ideology, everyone is entitled to a fair trial.

bush has now become pontious pilot, and can wash his hands of saddam's demise, which we all know will end in death. bush finally got revenge at the cost of american lives and many innocent iraqi lives.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:48 pm 
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Saddam is certainly no saint, but as we can all plainly see, governing in Iraq isn't exactly a saintly job. They are a largely tribal society, prone to infighting and feuds over things we would consider trivial (I am in no way trivializing the culture they have developed, I am not judging them for their code of honor, simply making a cross culture obsevation). The US is finding itself needing to rule with the same *do it and I'll fucking kill you* attitude that Saddam used for years.

Fair trial? I doubt it. Saddam can tell too many tales. He can drag in the DoD, Bush Sr., the CIA. The French, British and Russian were all in bed with him, too. He sure does deserve one, but so does the entire current Administration and they won't get one either, in all liklihood. Fair isn't a game GW plays very well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:54 pm 
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Saddam To Go On Trial
So I thought I would present a recently released FOIA so we can all keep score.

Documents
Note: The following documents are in PDF format.
You will need to download and install the free Adobe Acrobat Reader to view.


Document 1
NIO/Middle East
The Implications of the Iran-Iraq Agreement
May 1, 1975. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

This State Department- CIA- Defense Intelligence Agency analysis explores the implications of the March 1975 agreement between Iran and Iraq on border issues. One result of the agreement was Iran halting aid to the Kurdish forces who opposed the Iraqi regime. A key element of the study is an examination of the impact of the agreement on the Kurds' ability to oppose the regime


Document 2
Director of Central Intelligence
NIE 36.2-1-79, Iraq's Role in the Middle East
June 21, 1979. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

While this national intelligence estimate focuses primarily on external affairs it also deals with topics such as the nature of the regime and regime politics. Its principal judgments include the observation that "Iraq's Ba'athist leaders are determined to perpetuate themselves in power, to impose their national, socialist, and secular philosophy on the country" and "The 40-year-old civilian Saddam Husayn is likely to succeed the ailing President Ahmed Hasan al-Bakr …"

Document 3
Director of Central Intelligence
SNIE 34/36.2-82, Implication of Iran's Victory Over Iraq
June 8, 1982. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

This special national intelligence estimate explores both the domestic and foreign implications of Iran's apparent (in 1982) victory over Iraq in their then two-year old war. Included in the estimate is an analysis of Iranian and internal challenges to Saddam's role and the likely nature of a successor regime.


Document 4
Director of Central Intelligence
SNIE 36.2-83, Prospects for Iraq
July 19, 1983. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

This estimate also explores the domestic and foreign implications of Iraq's continued war with Iran. Two sections deal with the domestic impacts - one focuses on economic issues, the other on the political impact of the war. The political impact section examines regime weaknesses and strengths, possible succession scenarios, and opposition groups. The estimate's key judgments included the belief that "Saddam will remain in power for the two-year period of this Estimate, but in our judgment his regime has become more brittle. It is more … dependent on fear as an instrument of control …"

Document 5
Central Intelligence Agency
Iraq: Foreign Intelligence and Security Services
August 1985. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

A key factor in Saddam's ability to maintain power were the regime's intelligence and security services. This appears to be the only one of the CIA's "Foreign Intelligence and Security Service" studies to be officially released. It focuses on the functions, organization, and administrative practices of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, Director of Military Intelligence, and the Directorate General of Security, as well as key personalities.


Document 6
Central Intelligence Agency
Political and Personality Handbook of Iraq
January 1991. Secret
Source: CIA Electronic Reading Room

In the summary to this study, it is noted that Saddam had built a powerful, centralized political machine with only himself and a few trusted family members and lieutenants making virtually all policy decisions. The handbook's main body contains a section on Saddam's Iraq which covers the country's social structure and identity, the structure of the government, the Ba'ath Party and the security services. Other topics examined in the handbook include the men around Saddam, his inner and outer circles, and key military commanders.


Document 7
Central Intelligence Agency
Iraq: Domestic Impact of the War
January 25, 1991. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

This report, by the CIA's Office of Near Eastern and Asian Analysis, was written soon after the initiation on operation Desert Storm in January 1991. Among the domestic impacts it considers are the economic consequences as well as the political climate.


Document 8
Central Intelligence Agency
Iraq: Implications for Insurrection and Prospects for Saddam's Survival
March 1991. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act

This analysis, also produced by the agency's Near Eastern analysis office, focuses solely on the prospect that Saddam would survive the aftermath of Iraq's defeat in the Persian Gulf War. It begins by noting that Saddam "faces his most serious political challenge in more than twenty years of power." It examines possible outcomes to the insurrection as well as scenarios for a coup.


Document 9
Director of Central Intelligence
SNIE 36-2-91, Iraq: Saddam Husayn's Prospects for Survival Over the Next Year
September 1991. Secret
Source: CIA Electronic Reading Room

Six months after the CIA's Near Eastern analysis office completed its assessment of Saddam's prospects for survival the entire Intelligence Community produced a Special National Intelligence Estimate on the same topic. In a memorandum included as a preface to the main body of the estimate, acting director of central intelligence Richard Kerr informed readers that "the key value of this paper is its appraisal of the intense internal and external pressures on the regime in Iraq."

Document 10
Director of Central Intelligence
NIE 92-7, Saddam Husayn: Likely to Hang On
June 1992. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act

The title to this 1992 national intelligence estimate provided the Intelligence Community's conclusion as to Saddam's immediate prospects. The body of this estimate discussed how Saddam was 'tightening his grip' and 'extending his reach in the South' and putting 'pressure on the Kurds.' It concludes with a discussion of why Saddam's survival over the near term was judged likely.


Document 11
Central Intelligence Agency, Special Intelligence Memorandum
Humanitarian Situation in the Marshes, August 20, 1993
August 20, 1993. Top Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

This special intelligence report notes that deteriorating living conditions in Iraq's southern marshlands had prompted some Iraqi Shiites to flee to Iran or to locations elsewhere in Iraq and that "Baghdad continues to deny the UN and international relief organizations access to the marshes."

Document 12
Director of Central Intelligence
NIE 93-42, Prospects for Iraq: Saddam and Beyond
December 1993. Secret
Source: Freedom of Information Act Request

Among the key questions examined in this late 1993 national intelligence estimate were the prospects for the survival of Saddam's regime, the impact of sanctions and diplomatic isolation on Saddam's survival, the most likely means of regime change, the characteristics and policies of likely successors, and the prospects of political stability after Saddam. It includes the observation that the Intelligence Community did not "anticipate receiving significant intelligence indications that a successful coup is imminent," since "any group of anti-Saddam conspirators that cannot keep their plot secret from US intelligence is not likely to keep it secret from Saddam's security services."

Document 13
Department of State
Saddam Hussein's Iraq
September 1999. Unclassified
Source: Department of State

This heavily illustrated Department of State publication was aimed at the American public and international audiences. It explores the impact of sanctions, Iraqi obstruction of the oil-for-food program, regime misuse of resources, repression of the Iraqi people, and war crimes committed by the regime.

Document 14
Director of Central Intelligence
Putting Noncombatants at Risk: Saddam's Use of "Human Shields"
January 2003. Unclassified
Source: Central Intelligence Agency

This unclassified Intelligence Community study examines Saddam's use of both foreigners and Iraqis as human shields. Specific topics include the manipulation of Iraqi and foreign volunteers, and placing Iraqi civilians and civilian facilities at risk.

Document 15
U.S. Agency for International Development
Iraq's Legacy of Terror: MASS GRAVES
January 2004. Unclassified
Source: Agency for International Development

In the aftermath of the end of Saddam's regime mass graves were uncovered at numerous sites in Iraq. This Agency for International Development publication shows the location of the graves, which British Prime Minister Tony Blair estimated contained the bodies of as many as 400,000 Iraqis, and discusses the history involved as well as including stories of the survivors.
Note

1. Ellen Knickmeyer, "Iraq May Forgo Multiple Trials is Hussein Is Convicted in First," Washington Post, September 5, 2005, p. A25; Sebastian Allison, "Saddam to be tried in 1982 massacre," Washington Times, September 5, 2005, p. A15.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB167/index.htm


TUT


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"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:01 am 
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Well, you got lots of info on Saddam there, but thats only one team. In any scorekeeping endeavor both teams deserve to have their accomplishments recognised.

Where's the FOIA docs on US involvement in all of this?

Where are the documents from the DoD on the *gassing of the Kurds*?

Where are the documents on Q'wait's slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields?

Where's the document on the *return of "Iraqi" bodies to Iran*?

Where's the documents on the CIA's involvement with the Ba'ath party, both in bring it to power and keeping it in power?

Where's the documents on the School of America's training on the use of human sheilds as a strategy, and any implications to Ba'ath strategies?

Where's the documents on Bush Sr.s involvement with Saddam, before the war, while Director of the CIA?

Where's the documents on the CIA's involvement on helping Saddam fight Islamic Fundies?

Somehow, I doubt they were ever released, or will ever see the light of day.

While Saddam is a nasty fellow, let us not forget who gave him the training, the tools and the advice.

For any American to claim Saddam should swing from a gallows and not recommend the same for the nasty little rabid animals that supported him, financed him, trained him and advised him is hypocritical. Bush,Sr and Jr, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the fricking Mossad, Sharon, the Lukid, the lot of em should be charged as co-conspirators in all of this bullshit.

And least we forget, Bush's regiem in Iraq is closing in every day on all of Saddam's horrific records, using the exact same techniques, with full knowledge of the implications of their actions.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:31 pm 
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in related news from tvnewslies front page:

Defense lawyer for Saddam co-accused kidnapped

Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:44 p.m. ET

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Saadoun Janabi, a lawyer for a former Iraqi judge who is standing trial along with Saddam Hussein, was kidnapped on Thursday, a senior legal source involved in the trial and police said.

Police earlier named him as Saadoun Dulaimi but other police sources also said his family name was Janabi. The legal source said he was an attorney for Awad al-Bander, who sat next to Saddam in the dock on the first day of the trial on Wednesday.

source:
http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/stor ... Id=1105256

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 Post subject: Re: Saddam Trials....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:15 pm 
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mga wrote:
we're all well aware that saddam has started his trial, and the crime he's accused of goes back to the 1980's in which he's accused of having 142 people killed.

many want to see him hung for his alleged crimes, and i've read many replies in forums by alot of people who want him shot, hung, gassed or whatever.

after years of arguing with pro-war people, who have been telling me that the reason we invaded iraq was to "liberate those poor iraqi people" and to spead democracy and freedom to show the world it can be done in an arab state.

.



If America can do it why can't he? Most of you probably do not remember this one. Well mga and Stripey do that I know of. Those were dark days for America and now the same people and same industrial powers have done it again.

Anyway, back to killing innocent people.

"Not everyone in the company took part in the massacre, but enough of them did, led by Calley who reportedly mowed down 60 captured civilians in a ditch by himself after his soldiers balked at the order. Although the Army's official report determined that only about 10 soldiers actually performed the massacre, that's kind of hard to believe in light of the devastation ultimately wrought.

More than 500 people were killed in just hours. Some of the corpses were mutilated. Some women who weren't killed were gang-raped. Other villagers were beaten and tortured. And evidence of the carnage was recorded on film by an Army photographer accompanying the unit named Ron Haeberle.
etc.................

Calley was sentenced to life in prison two days later Nixon ordered him released................
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... i+Massacre

http://www.rotten.com/library/history/w ... -massacre/

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... /mylai.htm

No price was ever paid by anyone for this atrocity. Except for the people that had nothing to do with it. That would be the HUMAN RACE.

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