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 Post subject: WTP puts govt in bind over Tax Withholding
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:42 pm 
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Is IRS Withholding On The Ropes?

U.S. Unable To Prove It’s Not Voluntary


The United States appears to have bitten off more than it can chew when it sued Bob Schulz and the We The People organizations earlier this year in an effort to shut down "Operation Stop Withholding."

In the lawsuit, the Government accused WTP of operating an unlawful "abusive tax shelter" in violation of IRC Sections 6700 and 6701, citing the organization's efforts to urge individuals to terminate their W-4 wage and salary withholding agreements.

In response to the lawsuit served on Schulz on May 3, 2007, Schulz filed a motion to have the case dismissed on the ground that Operation Stop Withholding is not only fully protected by the First Amendment (including the Petition clause), it is protected because We The People organization is educating People about the withholding laws as they are currently written and which expressly provide that such agreements are voluntary.

The Government's lawsuit has asked the District Court to issue an injunction prohibiting WTP’s efforts to educate Americans about the legal termination of private withholding agreements. WTP's efforts rely on "black letter" law which clearly establishes that Withholding Agreements (W-4s) are voluntary and that a worker can -- at any time -- terminate his W-4 by simply notifying the company that he no longer gives his permission to the company to withhold from his pay.

The Government finds itself in a very tough spot.

All the rest here .. http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UP ... -07-19.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:08 pm 
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That's interesting. I've always wondered about the legality of tax thing. But I have mixed feelings about it. I am extremely liberal in my beliefs that the government should provide for the needy, which is done (or supposed to be done) through taxing, so I don't mind taxes so much. But on the other hand, knowing what taxes really pay for pisses me off, so how does one choose?

Also, at any job I've ever had I was REQUIRED to fill out a w -4 before I could even begin my employ...explain that

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:18 pm 
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Well, keep in mind what money, tax, inflation all are. Fiat - Tax & Tax. To be clearer, you are paying bankers who just "print" money out of thin air. It cost them nothing and since the whole deal is a money counterfeiting scam and should be illegal, it makes no sense to pay taxes to counterfeiters. You would be arrested for having your own money printer and doing the same thing. Since money is just fiat they can print any amount at any time. Under this system, paying taxes is ludicrous.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:58 pm 
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lefty, see if this might help answer your question about that W-4:


Quote:
In the United States, employers are required to withhold federal income tax, plus one-half of the Social Security tax, and one-half of the Medicare tax. Together, the employer's and employee's shares of the Social Security and Medicare taxes are known as the FICA tax. In some places, employers may be required to withhold state income tax, or even city income tax. In addition the employer is required to pay State and Federal unemployment tax.


[edit] Social security and Medicare taxes
Social security and Medicare taxes, also known as FICA taxes must be withheld from your employees' wages. As an employer, you must also pay a matching amount of FICA taxes for your employees. As of 2007, the social security tax rate is 6.2%. The employee must have 6.2% withheld from their wages for social security taxes and the employer pays a matching amount in social security taxes until the employee reaches the wage base for the year. The wage base for social security tax in 2006 is $94,200 and for 2007 increases to $97,500. Once that amount is earned, neither the employee or the employer owes any social security tax.

The Medicare tax rate is 2.9% for the employee and the employer. The employer must withhold 1.45% of an employee's wages and pay a matching amount for Medicare tax. Unlike the Social security tax, there is no maximum wage base for the Medicare portion of the FICA tax. Both the employer and the employee continue to pay Medicare tax, no matter how much is earned.


Unemployment taxes
Each employer also must pay State and Federal Unemployment Taxes (SUTA and FUTA). The FUTA rate is 6.2% but normally nets to 0.8% because the employer is allowed to take a credit of up to 5.4% for SUTA taxes that it pays. This will be the case if the employer is eligible for the maximum credit. The wage base for FUTA is $7,000 (i.e., the employer is liable for FUTA only on the first $7,000 of compensation paid to each employee per calendar year). Each state has different rate, so that employers must consult the state requirements for each applicable state regarding tax rates and maximum wage base. Many states require new business to have an average starting rate until an employment history is created. For example, Indiana requires new employers to pay 2.7% for the first 3 years. Afterwards the rate is adjusted depending on various factors, such as whether an ex-employee files a request for unemployment benefits.




LINK

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:16 pm 
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Cat, that information from wikipedia seems to be at odd's with what is listed on the site that SI listed.

Quote:
What follows are a just a few of the legal citations that the Government has been confronted with and has failed to rebut:
26 CFR § 31.3402 (p)-1 "Voluntary Withholding Agreements". (a) An employee who desires to enter into an agreement for withholding.....shall furnish his employer with Form W -4 (or equivalent) for withholding.
Read it for yourself.


Pursuant to 26 CFR § 31.3402(p)-1(b)(2), either a company or a worker may terminate the withholding agreement (or its equivalent) at any time, by furnishing a signed, written notice to the other. Read it for yourself.


Pursuant to 26 USC § 3402(p)(3)(A), 5 USC §5517 and 31 CFR §215.2(n)(1), all ordinary American workers have the right to refuse to consent to enter into a voluntary withholding agreement and can voluntarily refuse to have amounts taken from his/her pay for federal and/or state taxes, social security, other governmental insurance programs or welfare programs.

“Protected Individuals” as per 8 USC §1324a cannot be compelled to submit any specific government documents or to disclose a social security number as a condition of being hired by or maintaining their status as a worker. Most American workers qualify as "Protected Individuals" under the law.

The landmark decision of EEOC v. Information Systems Consulting CA3-92-0169T U.S.D.C. Northern District of Texas Dallas Division, held that companies cannot discriminate against applicants or workers for failure to obtain or disclose a social security number.


No law requires a worker to file a Form W-4 (or its equivalent). In U.S. v. Mobil Oil Co., 82-1 USTC para. 9242, U.S.D.C. ND Tex. Dallas 1981 CA. 3-80-0438-G, the court ruled that an Entity does not even have to send a W-4 Form or other employment forms to the Internal Revenue Service unless served with a judicial court-ordered summons to do so.


Pursuant to IRC §6041(c), a worker is only required to furnish a name and address upon demand of a company for whom he seeks to work. No social security number is required by statute.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:58 am 
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Not being an attorney, I have no idea as to what is the bottom line on any of this, CE, particularly as to one's absolute rights in the same instance...but my educated guess (being the wife of a business man who hires employees) is that if a prospective employee refuses to comply with what the employer requires on his/her application, his/her chances of getting the job are practically nil. Employers are under the gun, too, and they can face big penalties if they run a business in which their paper work isn't squeaky clean.

Hey, if things can be challenged, they should be, but one hopes the challenger has lots of money and support and....time. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:45 pm 
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I hear what you are saying Cat:)

I'm just wondering how many employers realize that if the items listed are in fact correct, (which from other things I have read I believe they are), then they are forcing all employee's to do something that by law the employers do not have the right to do.

Lol. I can see it now. Next job I go to:

Me..."No I'm not filling that out, I don't have to"

Them..."Seems the spot has already been filled. Thank you for applying"

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:12 pm 
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Exactly- just try telling a bank that you're not going to give them your SSN number and they will tell you "thank you but we don't need YOUR business", as if implying we need them to do their business on us. :roll: :x

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:43 pm 
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DO.g's wrote:
Exactly- just try telling a bank that you're not going to give them your SSN number and they will tell you "thank you but we don't need YOUR business", as if implying we need them to do their business on us. :roll: :x


Unfortunatly, with this current system in place.............

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