It is currently Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:10 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: In defense of conspiracy theories
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:20 pm 
Offline
SuperMember!
SuperMember!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:19 pm
Posts: 2533
I was reading a lengthy article on -THE CASE AGAINST INTELLIGENT DESIGN [9.1.05]-The Faith That Dare Not Speak Its Name- by Jerry Coyne- when he started to explain about conspiracy theories and their value to religion and science. The Dover and Cobb county references are pertaining to schools that put warning stickers on their science books. The Scopes trial is over but still the fundamentalists have the right to teach creationism in schools.

Quote:
When applied to evolution, the erroneous distinction between theory and fact shows why tactics such as the Dover disclaimer and the Cobb County textbook sticker are doubly pernicious. To teach that a scientific theory is equivalent to a "guess" or a "hunch" is deeply misleading, and to assert that "evolution is a theory, not a fact" is simply false. And why should evolution, alone among scientific theories, be singled out with the caveat "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered"? Why haven't school boards put similar warnings in physics textbooks, noting that gravity and electrons are only theories, not facts, and should be critically considered? After all, nobody has ever seen gravity or an electron. The reason that evolution stands alone is clear: other scientific theories do not offend religious sensibilities.


The concept of a god as the creator is nothing more than a theory that requires faith to make it real. By applying faith to logic is a fundamental flaw in thinking, as we are designed to believe what makes us happy is good and we also need to explain the purpose and meaning of our lives. Religion rose because it was the first form of science which tried to define what was undefineable with a plausible reason that humans could easily interpret as fact. By observing the world around them as they saw it they made connections that explained how it worked. Without any proof as to its validity, it was a question of faith in interpretation that built adherants to belief.

Then science came along- real science- and slowly through trial and error, by observing and verifying what facts could be proven, theories were developed that seemed to give order to sequential development, that leads to provable conclusions. Evolution is one of these theories as is gravity and electrons. They may not be visible today or over short periods of time but through careful observation, one can prove it is so. Take the theory of E= MC2. Einstein theorized that light had mass but it took him several years to actually prove it to be so. By observing that light bent around gas clusters he proved that it had mass as it was affected by gravity. Theory to fact by observation.

Science is nothing more than a continuation of where religion began. Unfortunately, people can't let go of their antiquated belief structures whch satisfy their inability to do the research that would free them from their fears and obsessions. I guess it would take dragging them into heaven and showing them that gods' seat is vacant and always has been, before they'll lose their faith in imagination. Obviously facts are required to change peoples needs and death phobias. If only science could offer eternal life. But being grounded in fact kind of eliminates the faith thing.

Anyway, Our own theories about 911 and other conspiracies are important because proven or not, it is more important to posit ideas than to be content with the flow. Who knows what information will come our way that will awaken new ideas and realities in the future. Remember, religion was a force in all cultures throughout history, as it explained what was unknown, but was required to interpret our environment from the internal to the external. Nothing has changed. We are still receptors/ observers looking for facts to explain why we believe the things we do. It is just that now we are trying to make sense out of the facts we are not a party in knowing. But if the ones we are given are not adding up, then we need to work out what makes more sense and eliminate all doubt through trial and error, until we can draw up a new idea about what is really happening. This makes us much better than our ancestors who followed whatever they were told to believe and to put their faith into hypothetical suppositions rather than facts and research.

What we need is to come up with a theory of why it is important to have conspiracy theories to counter assumed and processed facts. We need a list of reasons why it's important to be a Theorist, since we may never have all the facts. Whenever we get people questioning the validity of conspiracy theories we need a set of references that can be presented based on facts and observations; theories that became realities and the changes that they brought. Like Galileo's telescope, or the world being round- those that tried to bring reality to supposed fact and were ridiculed for it. The changes they brought resulted in revolutions in thought that reverberate still, despite what the nay-sayers said. Eventually they were forced to acknowledge that sometimes the world isn't exactly what it appears to have been as presented and we move on. This is why we believe in 911 conspiracies.

We are not merely theorists- we are potential innovators.

The article was posted before in Health and Science but I will post the URL for you here. Long but informative.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/coyne05 ... index.html

Have you noticed that the whole 911 thing is slipping into the past now as the new problems of the world are taking precedent. I guess no one is going to "Come Out" with the truth about what happened. Too bad, but I still say the Official Conspiracy Theory doesn't hold water. Never forget the criminal acts of our leaders.

_________________
Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

People don't choose to be dishonest
the choice chooses them

Now I know how Kusinich feels.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:54 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 5620
Location: western New York
Excellent post, DO.g's.

That religion was the beginning of thinking about why and how our realities exist and work is an apt way of stating where religion came from. Unfortunately, some people stopped evolving there and are stuck in the religion only mode, and quite comfortable being there too.

That doesn't mean true science should not be investigated--we have so much to learn yet.

I think my problem with religion only people is that they are so out of touch with reality. That allows them to destroy important aspects of life and our world without even giving it a second thought. "It is comfortable for me, therefore it is right." I find religion ONLY people to be quite selfish.

People like Bill Moyers, very religious, thinking person who delves into why people think the way they do and act the way they do. Some of our greatest people are religious, but not religious ONLY!

I have said for years, a person brings more to his/her religion more than he/she gets FROM it. I still believe that.

_________________
Libertarianism

Libertarianism Makes You Stupid


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:55 pm 
Offline
SuperMember!
SuperMember!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:14 pm
Posts: 990
Location: Dark Side of the Moon/upstate NY
A conspiracy theory is only a theory until a part of it becomes possible. Then it is no longer a theory, but a probablity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:08 am 
Offline
SuperMember!
SuperMember!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:19 pm
Posts: 2533
True, and if we were privy to all the facts then theories become realities. Making things possibilites and then probabilities become the challenge and the true facts must be researched over years, since the truth can be hidden so easily by so many undiscovered factors. Take the link between polio vaccines and the aids virus development. How many times were there suggestions that were the cause of aids? Remember the green Monkey theory? Will this latest one follow the same path or be the final conclusion?

Conspiracy theories will remain until someone steps forward with certifiable proof that what is being told is not how things went. Like John Dean and Nixon. It will take a brave group of people to step forward and tell the truth of say 9/11, to settle the argument of what is or isn't the greatest hoax/blunder/disaster of the new age of terror. until then with all the holes in the story and tampering of the evidence that was done has meant that it is left open to theories and investigation, like the Kennedy assassination, or the moon landings.

Without theories few things become facts, so it is natural to speculate on the obvious and the unknown and how they stack up to each other. We wouldn't have a god if we weren't able to theorise, so conspiracy theories are as natural as trying to understand how things work. The best part is that sometimes they are true and thus force us to keep on guessing.

_________________
Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

People don't choose to be dishonest
the choice chooses them

Now I know how Kusinich feels.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:19 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:14 am
Posts: 631
Location: altoona
like some of the previous posts have stated, conspiracies therioes develop over a period of time until they are exposed to the light of truth which either validates them or debunks them altogether.

but there are many of those on the dark side of this worlds agenda who are very busy preparing thier version of the truth in a pathetic attempt to hide the real facts.

as for the religious aspect in a few of the previous posts i have some opinions that i'll have to expound upon later. it's easy for a lot of people to point to religion as being the main source of much of trhe worlds problems. conversely, it could also be pointed out that in many cases it can be shown to be a source of what little good there is that's taking place.


it's mainly about faith and/or what the origin of your spiritual beliefs are based on.




and the whore still rides.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:35 pm 
Offline
SuperMember!
SuperMember!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:50 am
Posts: 1456
Location: Ct.
Quote:
it's easy for a lot of people to point to religion as being the main source of much of trhe worlds problems



Naw, religion is not the main source of the worlds woe's. Its people who are the main source of the worlds woe's. I think that if we do something crazy like drive mankind to extinction, religion will be just fine.:)

_________________
CrimsonEagle
The war to end all wars can only be fought on the front-lines of the mind.

The greatest deception they have perpetrated is that we need them. Our greatest mistake is that we believe them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:10 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 11:46 pm
Posts: 14444
Location: NC
I agree, Crimson...but if we didn't have the religions that appeal to the basic greed and fear in all of us, and then tell us it's ok to act on those two very basic emotions, maybe, just maybe, the people would be different. Maybe they'd be better.


Like John Lennon said....IMAGINE!

Catherine

_________________
Image

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."
Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help.
That other party, they work for people who don't need help.
That's all there is to it."

~Harry S. Truman


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:25 am 
Offline
SuperMember!
SuperMember!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:45 am
Posts: 804
Location: Red State
Quote:
IMAGINE!


Thats a pretty big word for some people. You cant IMAGINE without an open mind. You have two kinds of people here. Those who follow and want to be mainstream I.E. Preppies, republicans, sell outs, NO IMAGINATION. 2. Those who want to be different I.E. People that are goth, have piercings\tattoos (body art), people who think for themselves have IMAGINATION. I stand up and applaud anyone who wants to be different.

_________________
"All men are created equal until you become a liberal" - Rush Limbaugh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:27 am 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 11:46 pm
Posts: 14444
Location: NC
It's becoming a "dirty" word for the neocon religious wingers, justin!


Catherine

_________________
Image

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."
Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help.
That other party, they work for people who don't need help.
That's all there is to it."

~Harry S. Truman


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:55 pm 
Offline
SuperMember!
SuperMember!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:14 pm
Posts: 990
Location: Dark Side of the Moon/upstate NY
Quote:
religious wingers, justin


There are those in every party. Not just the conservative.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:30 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 11:46 pm
Posts: 14444
Location: NC
You're right, DK...you're right. Thanks for reminding me.

Not being religious myself, I tend to forget that believers of one religion or another aren't necessarily all neocon Bush lovers. However, they're often fighting one another and some of us get caught smack dab in the middle.

Maybe the Quakers have some of the better ideas.

Have you gone to the RELIGION forum yet? There are some very good threads in that place. Some of the better ones have been pushed down the line, but please feel free to resurrect (no pun intended) any of them that you like.

Catherine

_________________
Image

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."
Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help.
That other party, they work for people who don't need help.
That's all there is to it."

~Harry S. Truman


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:12 am 
Offline
SuperMember!
SuperMember!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:14 pm
Posts: 990
Location: Dark Side of the Moon/upstate NY
I am not a overly reglious person nor is my family. But, I do have some views and I mainly keep them to myself. I believe everybody if free to worhsip or not anyway they see fit, as long as it does not hurt me or my family.

I have a problem when our President seems to think that he is on a mission from God, to cleanse the world of all evil, when he is evil himself.

I will check out the forum. Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Blue Moon by Trent © 2007
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group