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Should corporal punishment be put back in public schools?
Yes 38%  38%  [ 5 ]
No 62%  62%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 13
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:31 pm 
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sadie53 wrote:
Corporal Punishment In Schools?
Joane A., South Norwalk, CT

Punishments in schools today need some change, some form of improvement. Punishments are supposed to be feared and effective. They must be sufficiently painful to keep kids from repeating what they did. The forms being practiced in schools today are too lenient and should be replaced with corporal punishment. (A form of punishment where the child can be spanked and whipped.)


http://teenink.com/Past/1997/8772.html

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Mr. Price said he initially encountered resistance. “I was cursed out so much, I couldn’t believe it,” he said. “And I’m talking about the parents.”

But gradually, the tenor of the school turned around, he said, for the better. He designed what he called the school’s “discipline ladder,” beginning with a warning for a first offense and escalating through push-ups, detentions and isolation from the other students during the school day.

Finally, there is the fifth rung. At that level, in consultation with parents, students can choose among corporal punishment, having their parents “shadow” them through a full school day, night school or outright suspension. In 8 cases out of 10, Mr. Price said, the students choose the paddling, although this is allowed only a few times.

“If it’s not changing their behavior, then we figure the pops aren’t working and we try something else,” Mr. Price said.

Mr. Price said he definitely believed there was a “cultural factor” behind the persistence of corporal punishment in some parts of the country after it has disappeared elsewhere.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/educa ... 1317268800


OOOOoooo... a discipline ladder... I like it... add in that the parents get paddled too and maybe THEN they would sit up and take notice...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:33 pm 
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jobot wrote:
sadie53 wrote:
The forms being practiced in schools today are too lenient and should be replaced with corporal punishment. (A form of punishment where the child can be spanked and whipped.)



sigh.


Chewing gum is a caning offense in Singapore... know how much gum is under their bus and/or theatre seats?

None.

Go figure.


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 Post subject: Life in depression era
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:36 pm 
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Thank you Catherine and DarkKnight for remembering a few things from the past.

My mother raised two crops a season. We had ice boxes - no freezers. Everything was canned. My father built us a smokehouse so mom could cure beef and pork. Does anyone ever have a big slab of salt cured ham for breakfast anymore? If people around town were told of mom canning so much - I can remember they had to see for themselves, and she always shared canned goods with any neighbor or friend or stranger in need of some help. She never expected anything in return for her generosity. She cooked three meals a day and we always ate every meal at the kitchen table. As school children we came home for lunch or brown bagged it. No cafeteria's in schools back then.

I was 6 years old when my mother got her first Maytag wringer
electric washer. Before that she washed clothes for nine people on the back porch on a wash board. Everything was cotton, starched, dried on the line in the sun, taken in dampened again and ironed. No such thing as wash and wear like today. No one in our family ever went around in dirty unkept clothes, nor did we ever go hungry.

When I was really old enough to appreciate all my parents done for me and all my brothers and sister - I had a hard time understanding how they managed to do so much in 24 hour increments. Compared to the older generation I know - I am a lazy person.

I am very thankful for every lesson they taught me and for all the help they gave me and my family.

One very important lesson I have always tried to live by - You are worth no more or no less than your word. Think first - then if you say it - mean it.

One fact I have lived with - I borrow very little - but every penny I ever borrowed from my parents was always payed back in full. When my parents passed away and I was appointed the executrix of their meager estate - I was shocked at all the IOU"s my parents had people sign for loans they had given them. I borrowed from them and was never asked to sign a note.

Life was hard in those days but mostly happy. In my twilight years I realize just how much we live in the past and I have been told we should live our life so that when we relive it - it should be with the happy feeling of a job well done. So very true.

I really did enjoy my childhood and I was never taught to hate - despise or try to hurt anyone because they were of a different color - religion or race - or different from me.

If a male ever abused a female, there were men who would challenge the abuser to stand up to a man. If a son was the abuser the father taught him better. If a daughter was abused the male had better run because the father again would settle the dispute.

By today's standards anyone trying to help anyone may be sued for their
efforts.

Bring back a lot of the good old days.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:46 pm 
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jobot wrote:
dori wrote:
Jobot, at no time did sadie say she was going to spank or hit a child. She said the children coming to class are undisciplined.


She's admitted to using physical punishment on her kids. She wants corporal punishment allowed in the classroom. How is that not saying she was going to spank or hit a child?


dori wrote:
Sadie has been talking about a teacher recommending discipline, not a teacher hitting a child.


I guess that's where we differ in opinion. I see physical "discipline" as violent and abusive. Some see it simply as much needed discipline, and not "hitting a child." IMO, when you hit somebody, whether on the butt or in the face, it's violence.


dori wrote:
It is not her job to discipline them nor has she stated a desire to do so. She just wants the problem solved.


I may not be a teacher, but that doesn't mean that I don't want the problem solved, too. I simply want it done in a non-violent way. She may not have said that she wants to do the spanking, but isn't it the teachers who have been the majority of "discipliners" throughout the history of corporal punishment?


dori wrote:
No, I don't believe in hitting a child.


Glad to hear it. (I thought you were on the corporal punishment side.)





Lefty, I know I'm absolutely being harsh on Sadie, just like she is to me. I've also said, numerous times though, that I respect what she does and am positive that she works very hard to teach and make a difference. I hope that didn't get lost inbetween the insults coming from us both.


Then STOP your insults, jobot. You've been pushing sadie hard since the very beginning of this thread.

:evil: Chill out. :evil:

IMO, sadie wants discipline in her class room so she can teach her willing students. SHE doesn't want to hit the kids, (well maybe that one but that's understandable, IMO)... but she wants it on the table.

I don't blame her for it.

Purrsonally, I'd hold the parents responsible. Fine them if their "evil spawn" can't behave. Cane them. Send them to jail for the week end or longer. I guarantee the child would no longer be a disciplinary problem.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:52 pm 
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jobot wrote:
She says she uses physical punishment on her own children.
She says she wants physical punishment to be allowed in school.
Teachers, in more cases than not, are the ones administering the punishment. I assume it would be no different at her school. That is why I'm ASSUMING she WOULD be hitting a child.


Then you haven't been reading all the posts I have. try rereading the thread... cuz jobot

sadie explained quite a while ago that corporal punishments were dealt out by the ADMINISTRATORS or COACHES with the parents PRESENT... did you miss that or are you just being obtuse because you STILL get a thrill out of giving teachers a hard time?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:55 pm 
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jobot wrote:
sadie53 wrote:
And I made it very clear that ADMINISTRATORS carry the punishment IN FRONT OF THE PARENTS. I even supplied you an article about it. The students or the parents can OPT for the swats in place of suspension.


Maybe that's how it is in some schools, but in others, the teachers administer punishment. And, they do it in front of the other students.




They do? Where? Got proof? Or are you just blowing smoke?

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 Post subject: Re: Corporal Punishmeny
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:00 pm 
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dee35ann wrote:
I think a few of you are viewing corporal punishment as physical abuse and or torture. There is a vast difference.

If children are not taught - rules are made to be followed - not broken, then they are like a fish out of water. No direction, purpose, goals and no reason to improve.

Children are intelligent beings and I think they are finally realizing that by pushing the right buttons, they can control most situations. They fail to realize - they need an education to really survive in todays society.

If children are not taught there will be repercussions for their actions - they already have one strike against them.

Nygreenguy - You are ready to take on anyone you feel is abusing your child (physical violence?). Why then would you expect anyone to take abuse from your child?

Ditto for you too rooster. It's a two way street

Dog-again, there is a vast difference to corpal punishment and beating and abusing children. Teachers don't want children fearing them and they certainly don't want to shame them. Teachers want to educate their students and prepare them for life. I found it odd that you would bring GOD into this topic. My GOD depicts love and respect for one another, Man makes war and teaches hatred.

I was punished and corrected as a child and through the eyes of a child I thought I hated my dad. Then I grew up, got married and when I had children, I learned out of love, I was punished. If parents truly love their children they will try to teach them right from wrong. Different measures for every child. No two are alike. Like penicillin - same dose cured some but killed others.

Because I was punished and taught lying was wrong - I learned never to lie to my parents. A lie meant a double dose of punishment. By being truthful - I learned - if my Dad felt I was in the right - he stepped up to the plate and corrected any unjust situation between me and a principal or teacher. But if I was in the wrong, he taught me how to make it right. My parents loved me and not too many children today have that feeling.


You sound very well adjusted Dee... and "old school"...

and obtw... let this olde tiger welcome you to the baord...

extends paw...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:02 pm 
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TheStripey1 wrote:
They do? Where? Got proof? Or are you just blowing smoke?


There's plenty of info available on the internet that talks about both teachers and principals administering punishment, including the link that lefty provided.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:12 pm 
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jobot wrote:
sadie53 wrote:
Did you have to say, "If you do that again, or don't stop, I will tell mom." Mom being the one who used physical punishment, they feared the consequence.


I should have seen that coming.
No, I didn't. I would tell them that the punishment would continue to the next day if necessary. Things like that.


What sort of punishment did you use? What were their "crimes"? How did your siblings turn out? Do they have kids? How do they treat them? Are they responsible parents or do they allow all the back talking and misbehavior rampant in today's youth that has been discussed here?

:roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:14 pm 
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Purrsonally, I'd hold the parents responsible. Fine them if their "evil spawn" can't behave. Cane them. Send them to jail for the week end or longer. I guarantee the child would no longer be a disciplinary problem
.

There was a kid at one of the schools in my area who was a serious disciplinary problem. He'd moved to the area from Florida, and enrolled in the fifth or sixth grade..forget which. But the parents told the administration that their child was not to be paddled regardless of his offense. (Now, understand that a paddling in NC schools isn't given routinely, even by the admins...it is always as a last resort and never given if parents have stated their child is not to be paddled.)

The principal called the parents everytime the kid was sent to the office, and that was quite often. They had to come to the school, leaving their jobs, which was not a good thing to do at all. The principal explained to them that, if they did not respond when he called, he'd call Social Services and report their child as being both abandoned and neglected. Whether or not he would've carried out the threat, or even if he could've, I do not know. He was a firecracker of a principal, so he probably didn't care.

Eventually, one of the parents was fired due to excessive absenses because of having to go to the school so much, and they moved away....probably to harrass some other school.

I wonder where that child is today..probably in jail.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:15 pm 
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DarkKnight2 wrote:
as we must also take into consideration that just because someone disciplined a dog, does not mean they can a child.


Or that because they were able to train a dog that they would ALSO be able to raise a child... pears and tangerines...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:18 pm 
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nygreenguy wrote:
jobot wrote:
And just because somebody does not have a child, does not mean that they know nothing about discipline.


But does anyone care that the experts say spanking isnt exactly the best option for discipline?


Sure... as I said before (which of course is after your post here since I'm reading this all today)... parents used to be legally responsible for their children... I don't know what happened to that but THAT should be brought back... if you punish the parent... then I guaranteeeeee their miscreant child will straighten up and fly right...

and obtw, NYGG... good article...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:21 pm 
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sadie53 wrote:
Cat, the kids have always created their own rules in my classroom. It worked for me for about 15 years. I have never had problems with the "bad" kids, I have always had good rapport with them. Actually, they were the ones who would get after someone breaking the rules.

The last three years have been a nightmare with each year a little worse than the last. When we were making our rules this year - you would not even believe some of the ones they came up with (being rude and laughing). One of them was for the teacher to supply candy everyday. No written assignments was another one. I knew I was doomed from the start.

Ohio has started a data base with each school district. When a student is suspended or expelled it goes in the data base for all to see and it is a mark against your district. Students who don't pass the proficiency test are each a mark against you. If students are absent, that is another mark. Our school officer goes to the homes and brings them to school.
Every mark is federal money withheld from the district.

The goal is to keep all students in school as much as possible. It has forced the school to keep all the disruptions in school too. They have run out of options. ISS is ALWAYS full. There is no where to put the problems. We need special teachers to work with with these troubled students. We do have SBH (severe behavior handicapped) and that used to help but now the criminally insane are in those classes and the true SBH kids are in the regular classroom. I am not trained for SBH, none of the regular ed teachers are.

We have a teacher this year who came from Cincinnati Public trying to get away from so many discipline issues. He said we were worse. For the first time in 18 years I fear for the safety of my students as well as my own.

I am documenting everything and boy could I write a book. If parents only knew what was really going on they would run the super. out. Problem is, we are a poor district and need all the federal funds we can get. There has to come a point when the administration says enough is enough and the money isn't worth it. It is probably going to take the death of a student or a teacher to wake some people up.

It isn't just our district. I have reletives who teach in other districts and they say the same is happening to them. It all stems for NCLB and the withholding of federeal funds.


Have you ever considered switching to teaching college kids? cuz THEY all want to learn...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:25 pm 
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jobot wrote:
lefty wrote:
I don't understand why every single discussion we try to have has to be turned into a religious one.
The strange little numbered rant you just had really didn't prove anything at all about disipline, but instead seems like you are preaching about the "way things were". I disagree that because things have changed from whatever eutopia you seem to think used to be things are now in the shitter.



What's coming next is Dee saying that he wasn't the one who started the religiuos talk. :roll: ...like that matters after that nice little piece.


DeeAnn didn't... it was DO.g... but who cares?

and obtw, job... Dee is a she not a he...

:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:27 pm 
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nygreenguy wrote:
lefty wrote:
I don't understand why every single discussion we try to have has to be turned into a religious one.


Well, politics and morals go hand and hand. Often times, religion dictates a persons morals, so we cant/shouldnt be surprised when it comes it.

Pretty much any topic we can think of can and will have a religious implication to it.


But it doesn't mean that every thread has to have a religious strand... I agree with lefty...

:lol:

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