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Should corporal punishment be put back in public schools?
Yes 38%  38%  [ 5 ]
No 62%  62%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 13
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:31 pm 
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This topic wan't enough for you, you had to go and start another one on the same topic. Like I said on the other one, when you have kids look me up.

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There's always some people who can't seem to get bad ideas out of their small brains.


You know nothing about discipline so you insinuate I have a small brain.

You are not worth wasting my time on. You try to make someone out to be a bad person because they spank their kids, yet you are childless.

Do you tell the doctor how to perform surgery too? I bet you tell a chef how to cook, and a lawyer how to defend his clients. Jeeesh I want to be someone who knows everything about everything.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:41 pm 
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sadie53 wrote:
You know nothing about discipline so you insinuate I have a small brain.


Obviously I know something about discipline if I can potty train a dog without hitting it.
Can you?...oh, that's right..

And Sadie, I'm not the only one here throwing around insults. I'll quote you on one.

sadie53 wrote:
you are plain stupid.



sadie53 wrote:
You try to make someone out to be a bad person because they spank their kids, yet you are childless.


The fact that I am childless doesn't mean that I don't know that hitting and humiliating a child is wrong. Do I need to have kids to understand that some forms of violence really isn't violence?


sadie wrote:
Do you tell the doctor how to perform surgery too? I bet you tell a chef how to cook, and a lawyer how to defend his clients. Jeeesh I want to be someone who knows everything about everything.


I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that teachers have no right to hit another person's child. They have no right to decide that physical punishment is okay for another person's child. They have no right to humiliate a child in front of others.
What you do with your own kids is your business. They're your kids, and your choice.
Someone else has no right to hit your child. Nobody has a right to hit another's child.....just like nobody has a right to hit another person. aka adult.


The purpose of my starting a new thread was to try and understand where somebody draws the line with violence, self defense not included.
WHY IS IT OK TO HIT A CHILD BUT NOT AN ADULT?...That was the purpose.
If my boyfriend is just punishing me for being bad, is it ok for him to hit me? You're saying yes to that.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:21 am 
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Jobot, at no time did sadie say she was going to spank or hit a child. She said the children coming to class are undisciplined.

Certainly by the time they get to middle school, children should know right from wrong and act accordingly. So many children are, excuse the expression, spoiled brats. They didn't get that way overnight.

The only thing wrong with children today, is adults.

I saw a child crossing the street with his mother haul off and punch an old woman in the stomach. The woman doubled over, nothing happened with the child.

I saw a parent hold the top off a bulk merchandise candy bin and tell her child to stuff candy in his pockets. I said to her, "Ah, teaching your child to steal, eh?", and I thought she was going to attack ME! Great parents we have out there.

I was standing in a store isle, picking out merchandise when a four year old yelled, "Move your fat ass or I will move it for you!" His mother laughed and said, "Oh, he says that to me all the time." Somewhere out there, there is a little girl who is going to have to deal with this monster to be.

I do not believe in hitting either because I was never spanked but then, my brother was a trouble maker and got lickin's all the time. Both of us had to have extensive therapy before we became even near functional.

Children are different just as adults are different. I know wonderful people who are a joy to be around, and I know people who drive me up the wall. We are all just different!

Sadie has been talking about a teacher recommending discipline, not a teacher hitting a child.

Actually, problem children should not be allowed to stop learning possibilities for the entire class. I have been against 'mainstreaming' since it started. The children who behave are deprived of the chance to have the best learning experience possible.

Sadie would give those other children that chance if she were not being backed into a corner by undisciplined children. It is not her job to discipline them nor has she stated a desire to do so. She just wants the problem solved.

What I believe is that by the time a child is in middle school, he should be able to functioin socially. The children sadie is talking about can't. That puts them on a road that is dangerous not only to others, but to themselves.

No, I don't believe in hitting a child. I am not so sure I want those children to continue with parents who obviously are not up to the job of raising productive, healthy young people though.

Just out of curiousity, how do others feel a situation should be handled when a child has been neglected as those sadie is dealing with seemingly are? No matter how expensive a child's clothing is, if he has not learned to live socially with others, he is neglected.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:13 pm 
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The behavior problem kids that I deal with are with 5-7 years olds, so I don't know if this would apply to middle schoolers or not. (Also, it is often recommended to me that I teach mid-high school to put my English degree to work, so far I can't fathom that because I don't think I could do what Sadie does, so we've got to give this woman some credit guys).

Anyway, I work with about 10 kids in K-garten who ,for various reasons, don't even know their alphabet, numbers, how to follow simple directions etc...Aside from ONE girl, the rest of them clearly don't have enough one on one time with their parents. The girl is fabulous, she is very smart, she knows all the things I am helping her with, but she is painfully shy, so her teacher is hoping the one on one with another teacher may encourage her to participate and speak more loudly in class. Anyway, I digress. The other 9 kids don't get attention at home. I've asked them. I tell them about things I do with my son and they all seem amazed that we would do flash cards nearly every day, or that I have a board so that we can practice writing and reading and spelling. I've found that mostly they want someone to listen to them, so I spend a period of time each day listening to them. I've also worked to clearly outline what is expected in our sessions. Silliness that is distracting is not allowed. They get three tries and then they lose their privilage of working with me that day. All of the kids have made a marked improvement in their behavior as well as their retention and learning since the beginning of the school year. They each love me and I love them. We hug when they do something awesome and I let them cry when they are disappointed or sad. It takes a lot of effort on my part; a lot of their behavior is frustrating and tiresome and there have been days when I went home that I didn't want to go back the next, but I do always manage to go back and they are thrilled. I try to use positive reinforcement with all good behavior and only use negative consequences after they have used up their chances. Once they learned that I wasn't kidding and that loss of privilages would truly happen, they have each improved. Sadly, two of the children who most needed my attention have now been placed on drugs of some sort or another and the kids are so different and lethargic, I think i've lost all we've worked these many months on. One of the children so hates the way these meds make him feel that he slammed his head in a door because he wanted to "stop his head". Everytime I see him now he tells me that his head is funny. The other child is unable to stay awake for more than an hour or so at a time now. It sucks, both of these kids were making progress and learning both schoolwise and social wise and now they are little zombies.

IMO, the problem lies with the parents first and the school as an entity second. Children thrive when they receive individual or small group attention. But when they come to realize that the only behavior that is going to be acknowledged is bad behavior, oftentimes they resort to bad behavior to receive at least some sort of attention. Classes are far, far, far too large. Cramming 30-40 kids in one class is unreasonable. Only the most independent of children are going to do well in this environment. My son's k-garten class has 26 kids to one first-year teacher. She mostly just screams the entire day. She puts kids into time out for hours on end and rarely pays attention to the kids who just try to please her. The majority of her attention is on the few "bad" kids. I wonder seriously if she will even try to teach after this year.

Sorry this has gotten really long. I'll stop for now.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:01 pm 
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I think lefty has hit upon a lot of the right reasons. Parents seem to be the ones who need to be taught. Children do most of their developing between the ages 0f 3-5 years, their impressionable years. What parents don't realise is how much influence on a childs behaviour and development they have. Since children are by far the most marginalised and least powerful in society, their concerns are trivialised by everyone, except the teachers.

Being put in the position of disciplinarian/caretaker/educator/babysitter, it should be up to the parents to deliver children to schools with the understanding that they obey the rules and don't disrupt the class. It stems from unresolved abuse from their own childhoods. Parents when they are hitting their children revert back to their own childhoods and respond in kind. Some state that they don't know what comes over them, but a memory of such anger and frustration just takes over. Ah yes our subconscious, harbinger of all our instincts and memories from millenia, the 24/7 ruler of our psyche.

But with so much oppression in childrens lives from parents, peers, TV, religion, etc.- they see a sample of life with snippets of the problems, while their concerns are being trivialised by parents and other adults as childish and immature- and to top it off, they're expected to be perfect in our imperfect world. Seen and not heard comes to mind as the teachings us adults received, as we repeat the same mantra's our parents lived by and their parents passed on. Parents are in dire need of lessons on raising children. The disciplinarian as god, seen with resentment to its intolerance to change and understanding. Just rules, rules, rules, do as your told, not as I do. And we wonder why children rebel.

But of course, with the vertical mosaic we call class structure in life, well we have to all compete for what we get in life, thanks to our corpitalist structure. This is where systemic oppression becomes part of the equation. It is a class struggle to find security in a system which respects only wealth as a standard of excellence and success. The pressure is on children to perform and they let us down by acting out their oppression and frustration. This is learned behaviour, and is common among the resistance techniques to authority that most oppressed colonized humans and a general inability to trust each other. Parents project this upon their children and our children act out the frustration of being truly powerless. This is what happens when people are forced to exist with fear of survival constantly upon them- too busy to take the time to be loving and caring for our childrens real needs and development. So the world has become, so it has always been. One mother back when I was 18 stated that we have lost the Quality to life- we have Quantity but the little things are gone forever. Perhaps it was nostalgia speaking, but children have a better chance at coping when they have at least 1 adult with them when they're young. How many go home to empty homes now and become the authority in their lives?

The most important thing is my disagreement with the next statement lefty said- she blamed the schools. I believe that it is authority that is next in line, but not the teachers. The teachers are the convenient scapegoat in all this. Again, we receive orders and we execute them, like NCLB. There is little difference between the concentration camp structure/penal system and our teaching institutions. It is the one place we are all forced to go to, whether we choose to or not. Home schooling is the only option and parents are expected to instruct with the same care any teacher must exercise.

At least we don't execute our children in schools, but we do try and control the type of people they come out of school as. Was it the guard who should be punished for what he was told to do, or is it the guy who tells him to do it that is responsible, or is it the guy in the ministry office who drew up the plans, or is the supreme commander at fault? This compartmentalisation of responsibilities works well for our politicians, so they can bring the blame to whatever level of delegated authority is directly in the publics eye.

Lefty wrote-
Quote:
Children thrive when they receive individual or small group attention. But when they come to realize that the only behavior that is going to be acknowledged is bad behavior, oftentimes they resort to bad behavior to receive at least some sort of attention. Classes are far, far, far too large. Cramming 30-40 kids in one class is unreasonable. Only the most independent of children are going to do well in this environment. My son's k-garten class has 26 kids to one first-year teacher. She mostly just screams the entire day. She puts kids into time out for hours on end and rarely pays attention to the kids who just try to please her. The majority of her attention is on the few "bad" kids. I wonder seriously if she will even try to teach after this year.


Paying attention works, so we as parents should put the blame where it belongs and learn how to raise children so they don't grow up like we did- parents should learn to respect theirs and others children as valuable assets to society, not troublemakers, shit disturbers, class disruptors, bullies, elites and the destitute poor striving for the middle class. There needs to be fairness and balance to school and family life. Until we get our civilized notions about war and community worked out, it appears the system wants sociopaths, murderers and cutthroats to continue their race to the ultimatre illusion- superiority over fellow humans, to be the next ruler of ones little empire, to push their truth on others and win the next American Idol while shopping a t Wal-Mart for all those great deals, so you can dress up like your favorite hero.

Hatred, competition, and greed?- or helping, caring and sharing- we have a choice how to raise our children and make them better than we are, or we can just continue on our course and believe that there is nothing wrong with us and so our children shouldn't expect to feel or act any different that we do.

Children who are brought up without basic love and care are going to turn into angry, hateful, greedy individuals just like us, and the cycle of civilization and its quest for perfection goes on blundering through history like an airplane being built and added to while in flight. Being cumbersome and awkward, it is on a collision course with fate, like so many other failed attempts at free flight, littered on the sands of time below us. And of course we ignore all lessons of history in hopes we can get by with our heads in the clouds and not to eventually be the next one planted in the sand.

Oh well, we can always leave it to our children to solve!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:19 pm 
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dori wrote:
Jobot, at no time did sadie say she was going to spank or hit a child. She said the children coming to class are undisciplined.


She's admitted to using physical punishment on her kids. She wants corporal punishment allowed in the classroom. How is that not saying she was going to spank or hit a child?


dori wrote:
Sadie has been talking about a teacher recommending discipline, not a teacher hitting a child.


I guess that's where we differ in opinion. I see physical "discipline" as violent and abusive. Some see it simply as much needed discipline, and not "hitting a child." IMO, when you hit somebody, whether on the butt or in the face, it's violence.


dori wrote:
It is not her job to discipline them nor has she stated a desire to do so. She just wants the problem solved.


I may not be a teacher, but that doesn't mean that I don't want the problem solved, too. I simply want it done in a non-violent way. She may not have said that she wants to do the spanking, but isn't it the teachers who have been the majority of "discipliners" throughout the history of corporal punishment?


dori wrote:
No, I don't believe in hitting a child.


Glad to hear it. (I thought you were on the corporal punishment side.)





Lefty, I know I'm absolutely being harsh on Sadie, just like she is to me. I've also said, numerous times though, that I respect what she does and am positive that she works very hard to teach and make a difference. I hope that didn't get lost inbetween the insults coming from us both.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:36 pm 
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Just wanted to clarify when I said "school" I wasn't in any way indicating teacher, I meant more of the school as an entity. Class size is a major issue. I wasn't talking about teachers at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:00 pm 
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Quote:
So you're not willing, as a teacher, to have a child in your care without physical punishment being an option? ...I know you're doing this right now, but you obviously don't want to be.


Don't put words in somebodies mouth.

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I really hate to say this Sadie, but I'm aftaid that "teachers taking out their rage on children" is aimed at teachers like you. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not calling you a bad teacher or anything like that


then what exactly are you saying to her?

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And Sadie, I'm not the only one here throwing around insults. I'll quote you on one.


sadie53 wrote:
you are plain stupid.



But it was alright for you to tell her she was a bad teacher and probably needed to stop being a teacher?

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If my boyfriend is just punishing me for being bad, is it ok for him to hit me? You're saying yes to that.



That is not a good example. We are assuming that you are an adult, so why would you allow your boyfriend to punish you? I would never think of "punishing" my wife.


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She's admitted to using physical punishment on her kids. She wants corporal punishment allowed in the classroom. How is that not saying she was going to spank or hit a child?


Pretty obvious to some.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:14 pm 
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DarkKnight2 wrote:
Don't put words in somebodies mouth.


I'm not. She wants corporal punishment, and is not happy that she does not have that option now. She spoke for herself.

DarkKnight2 wrote:
then what exactly are you saying to her?


Like I said before: her school sounds like crap. They have no rules and no way of punishing children. My stance was that punishment needs to be allowed, simply not corporal punishment.
She's working under extremely difficult circumstances, and is, rightfully, becoming angry and frustrated. I was saying that the reason why corporal punishment is not a good idea was because of teachers who are angry and frustrated, and at risk of punishing children with awfully hard smacks because of their frustration and anger. I never once called her a bad teacher..in fact I praised her numerous times. Read up!

DarkKnight2 wrote:
But it was alright for you to tell her she was a bad teacher and probably needed to stop being a teacher?


Quote me.

DarkKnight2 wrote:
That is not a good example. We are assuming that you are an adult, so why would you allow your boyfriend to punish you? I would never think of "punishing" my wife.


It is a good example. Men's excuses for hitting their girlfriend/wife are often "She was doing something wrong." Those men claim to be dealing punishment out.
If that's not a good example because I'm an adult and therefore, cannot be physically punished...then why is it okay to physically punish a child?
That was my point in using that example.


DarkKnight2 wrote:
She's admitted to using physical punishment on her kids. She wants corporal punishment allowed in the classroom. How is that not saying she was going to spank or hit a child?
Pretty obvious to some.



She says she uses physical punishment on her own children.
She says she wants physical punishment to be allowed in school.
Teachers, in more cases than not, are the ones administering the punishment. I assume it would be no different at her school. That is why I'm ASSUMING she WOULD be hitting a child.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:07 pm 
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I really hate to say this Sadie, but I'm aftaid that "teachers taking out their rage on children" is aimed at teachers like you. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not calling you a bad teacher or anything like that



But it was alright for you to tell her she was a bad teacher and probably needed to stop being a teacher?


Quote me

That statement to me implies that you think she is a bad teacher and should no longer be one. At least that is the way I saw it. Was I wrong in my thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:12 pm 
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DarkKnight2 wrote:
That statement to me implies that you think she is a bad teacher and should no longer be one. At least that is the way I saw it. Was I wrong in my thoughts?


In no way does that imply that she should no longer be a teacher.
DK, I can understand how you might think that I was saying she was a bad teacher. I pretty sure I just cleared that up, and told you exactly what I meant though. Should I repeat it?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:22 pm 
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yes you did. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:58 pm 
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Quote:
She says she uses physical punishment on her own children.


Yes I have. I stated when they were very small I spanked them once or twice.

Quote:
She says she wants physical punishment to be allowed in school.
Teachers, in more cases than not, are the ones administering the punishment. I assume it would be no different at her school. That is why I'm ASSUMING she WOULD be hitting a child.


And I made it very clear that ADMINISTRATORS carry the punishment IN FRONT OF THE PARENTS. I even supplied you an article about it. The students or the parents can OPT for the swats in place of suspension.

I said I only wanted it for an alternative or added discipline. Detentions just don't work anymore.

Quote:
Do you deny that hitting you kid's butt is not only an act of violence, but also an act of sexual assault? ...Your butt is a personal, sexual, part of your body. It's degrading and humiliating to be hit there.


I beleive, because I spanked my children you consider me a sex offender. I don't consider the butt a "sexual" part of the body, but apparently you do. I would never hit my child anywhere else other than the butt. I have read many articles on the subject and half of the psychologists think it is an appropriate form of punishment while the other half does not. Which half is right?

I am guilty of saying and making posts using the term "you" as in meaning anyone or those who feel this way, people in general, etc. You jobot, take it personally as if I mean "only jobot" and you do the same with others in this forum.

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Look at your own signature. You need to live by it, rather than going on the attack of someone who opposes your view.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:33 pm 
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sadie53 wrote:
And I made it very clear that ADMINISTRATORS carry the punishment IN FRONT OF THE PARENTS. I even supplied you an article about it. The students or the parents can OPT for the swats in place of suspension.


Maybe that's how it is in some schools, but in others, the teachers administer punishment. And, they do it in front of the other students.


sadie53 wrote:
I beleive, because I spanked my children you consider me a sex offender.


"Don't put words in somebody's mouth."


sadie53 wrote:
I don't consider the butt a "sexual" part of the body, but apparently you do.


Does your husband hit or grab your butt when you're interacting with him sexually? I'm sure your answer to that would be yes, as would anybody's. That is what makes it a "sexual" part of the body.
Would you feel violated if somebody grabbed your shoulder while you were walking through a store?...How about if they grabbed your butt?


sadie53 wrote:
I am guilty of saying and making posts using the term "you" as in meaning anyone or those who feel this way, people in general, etc. You jobot, take it personally as if I mean "only jobot" and you do the same with others in this forum.


I use "you" when talking, too. It does not mean that I mean you in particular. That is how I write.
That is not what I take personally.
I take the conversations that I have personally, as does everyone. Some people simply show it more than others. It is personal because it reflects my views.
Also, I never complained about the fact that you say "you."


sadie53 wrote:
Look at your own signature. You need to live by it, rather than going on the attack of someone who opposes your view.


How am I not living by it?
When have I ever told you that you have no right to speak?
I'm pretty sure that it was actually the other way around. You told me that I had no right to speak on the subject because I did not have children.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:45 pm 
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IMO, hitting a child is no different than hitting an adult. Hitting a child for punishment hurts, humiliates, violates, scares, and teaches them that hitting is ok.
I believe that there are far better ways to punish and teach without using physical force.
If the fact that I have no children invalidates my view to you, so be it. I have had experience with training both my pets, and caring for my younger siblings, where many times I felt like hitting them. I do not want to teach them that hitting is ok to do though. I would prefer to teach them patience and understanding. It is something that I have yet to come close to mastering myself.
If a parent uses physical punishment on their child or pet, I have no right tell them not to.
But when some want to give people, other than the child's parent, a right to hit that child, a line must be drawn.
Also, the fact that SOME would abuse the power they were given for physical punishment on students is enough of a reason to not be ok with the idea. If a teacher or administrator is hitting one child too hard or too much, that means it is unacceptable. IMO

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