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Should corporal punishment be put back in public schools?
Yes 38%  38%  [ 5 ]
No 62%  62%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 13
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:27 am 
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In all the schools the my children have gone to that allowed spanking. I or my wife first had to sign a paper giving the Principal permission to administer the punishment. My children were never punished in that way. But the letter stated that if a spanking was ever administed the Prinicipal would do it, with a nurse and another witness present. That it would never be done in front of other students and would be done at the end of the day.

I have no idea where you went to school, but if they administed that in front of other students, then I would consider that abuse and not punishment.


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 Post subject: Corporal Punishmeny
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:00 am 
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I think a few of you are viewing corporal punishment as physical abuse and or torture. There is a vast difference.

If children are not taught - rules are made to be followed - not broken, then they are like a fish out of water. No direction, purpose, goals and no reason to improve.

Children are intelligent beings and I think they are finally realizing that by pushing the right buttons, they can control most situations. They fail to realize - they need an education to really survive in todays society.

If children are not taught there will be repercussions for their actions - they already have one strike against them.

Nygreenguy - You are ready to take on anyone you feel is abusing your child (physical violence?). Why then would you expect anyone to take abuse from your child?

Ditto for you too rooster. It's a two way street

Dog-again, there is a vast difference to corpal punishment and beating and abusing children. Teachers don't want children fearing them and they certainly don't want to shame them. Teachers want to educate their students and prepare them for life. I found it odd that you would bring GOD into this topic. My GOD depicts love and respect for one another, Man makes war and teaches hatred.

I was punished and corrected as a child and through the eyes of a child I thought I hated my dad. Then I grew up, got married and when I had children, I learned out of love, I was punished. If parents truly love their children they will try to teach them right from wrong. Different measures for every child. No two are alike. Like penicillin - same dose cured some but killed others.

Because I was punished and taught lying was wrong - I learned never to lie to my parents. A lie meant a double dose of punishment. By being truthful - I learned - if my Dad felt I was in the right - he stepped up to the plate and corrected any unjust situation between me and a principal or teacher. But if I was in the wrong, he taught me how to make it right. My parents loved me and not too many children today have that feeling.


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 Post subject: Corporal Punishment
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:25 am 
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jobot: You say you are not very fond of kids - good kids are ok.

What makes a good kid?

Since you seemed to know how Sadie feels - allow me the same privilege with you. You are childless - right? Since you have spent no around the clock - seven days a week - 365 days a year in the company of children - how can you justify your vast amount of knowledge as to what will or will not motivate a child?

You can correct children without inflicting pain - degrading them or causing bodily injury. You can only humiliate children if they choose to be humiliated. If humilation means they are not getting away with violating the rules - then lets humiliate them more often. They may learn a thing or two and in the process they may learn to read, write, add and subtract

A teachers frustration stems from being unable to educate those who know everything and doesn't want to learn.

A teacher gets angry because an unruly brat disrupts the whole class - hindering those who want to learn. If a teacher has several trouble makers in a class it sure creates a problem for everyone.

Resentment stems because the administration has no clue about what takes place in the everyday classroom - because their assistants and several aids do not give the head chiefs the bad news because they know they don't want to hear it.

My principal was also my teacher. She didn't sit in an air conditioned office drinking coffee and blowing smoke up some one's rear. She had hand on experience and earned her pay.

About Rage - I don't understand your equation of rage to corporal punishment. Have you ever considered becoming a writer? I think you may have the imagination for it. Maybe childrens books with your vast knowledge of children. Just an idea.

Expelling a student is a definate no - no. Under the NCLB guidelines expulsion would cut federal funding and the overhead expenses it takes to operate our schools couldn't take the cut because property owners are getting tired of the unconstitutional funding of our schools.

I raised five children - so I do have a little bit of knowledge of what I speak. I was always amazed - 5 children - 5 completly different personalties. 3 quite successful - 2 run of the mill - didn't want to go to school - only wanted good times and party's.

Now a little bit about a man hitting a woman:

I taught my daughters: if you want to be treated like a lady - be a lady. Don't try to act like a man.

I taught my son: A MAN does not hit a lady. If a female hits you - defend yourself because she is no lady.

Yes - I corrected my children - spanked when necessary, but I have never been guilty of physically abusing or torturing (they thought it was torture at the time) any one of my children.

My son told me on one occasion I should have killed him and kicked him to school and made him get an education. Too soon old and too late smart for most people. No one can teach anyone not willing to learn.

Only one more bone to pick with you jobot:

Please don't assume anything with me -- you only suceed in making an ass of u and me.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:36 am 
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dee35ann two outstanding post. Thank your for sharing your family and your knowledge.

You put into words I think what many of us were trying too. Great post.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:24 pm 
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Ah yes spare the rod spoil the child. I see your Memes are working fine on you. Everyone who has reasoned out the obstacles has figured out that the god angle is nothing but a scam, a snake oil salesman at your door selling potions of sadness and oppression. Love? What kind of trick are you trying to project? Oh right, you've got the REAL religion.

It is obvious this site is dividing between those seeking the truth and those who would have us believe in their illusions. Spare the rod- notice that most of those who are advocating violence as a solution to bad behaviour are of a religious inclination? Dee ann , if you actually read my full post, you would see that I actually stood up for the teachers and only included the real oppressive forces in life, like religion etc. If you don't think god is an oppressive force on the poor then your eyes are wide shut. The meek shall inherit the earth indeed- that and all its other miseries while the middle class schmoozes with its sleepwalking.

If children see parents, administrators, presidents, soldiers, using violence to solve their problems then what will children do? You figure it out. And as for jesus? I know he loves me- He loves me so much that he wants to KILL me. Hows he going to come back to earth? With LOVE and a TWO EDGED SWORD.

You People must be reading a different bible than I am. Have any of you actually read this nonsense? I encourage you to pick up your bible today and start reading it critically. There is nothing like a good old rereading to make you wonder how you got fooled the first/second time being born again. Why be born again when you can do it right the first time!

It's truly amazing how bad things are and you will paint a rosy picture of it or just exorcise it from your thoughts. Please allow people to express their views here- it has always been done this way and it is the only way the truth can be dissemminated. If you wish to censor truth there are plenty of boards that do that kind of thing. Jesse set a standard of excellence here that we shouldn't tamper with.

This is what Jesse The Founder of this site said today-

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TVNL Editor's Comments: Systemic Systematic Greed

Why are there annual cost of living increases? Why do people who profit from business or salary need to increase their profits every single year? Why are annual rent increases the norm? When is enough enough?

The reality of our world is that greed has become an accepted and dare I say expected personality trait in today’s world. Well I think this shows how human beings, mostly rich capitalist human beings have fooled themselves into thinking that they actually have values that are worthy of anything other than shame. We live in a nation that accepts rent increases and consumer price increases for no other reason than to satisfy the greedy people who can never seem to feel wealthy enough yet we refuse to extend the same cost of living increase consideration to the many people who earn the minimum wage.

We raise the cost of just about everything every single year and by not raising the minimum wage we are making the poorest people of this nation poorer; intentionally. There is not a single economist who will tell you that this model is fair to all. This model is designed to make the very rich much richer and redistribute wealth from the bottom to the top. It is a trickle up model.

Until the words “homeless” can not be used in the same sentence with words like “person” or “veteran” I don’t want to hear what the economists who have been controlling our economy have to say; especially those economists who have taken over our nation at the private for profit criminal enterprise known as the Federal Reserve. If you really want to measure your character as a caring compassionate person who is sharing a world with others simply think about what it would take before you feel that you have “enough.” Think about it! – Jesse, Editor, TvNewsLIES.org


I'm not trying to offend. It is important that everyone be aware that there is more to knowledge and understanding than what we have been taught. This is where we have to be strong and not give in to our fears about investigating all sides of an issue. Fear is the great mind killer and no one should live in fear. We need change, and if that means getting rid of the old evil god then that is what we must do. We don't need violence in this world and having violent gods will never help us to evolve past this primitive state we are hanging onto. The inclination is to ban and exorcise- our ability to eliminate debate by censure. This is an example of EXTREMISM and is all to consistent with religious/political extremist dogma. Don't fall for this doctrines of jealousy and shame. Threats and bribes are too much the god game to be taken seriously and imposed on children. We have to grow free of these society imposed restraints. Give the children what they want and need, not what you think they want and need. Perhaps we've forgotten what it was to be a child. Small and vulnerable a target for anyone, fear and insecurity are natural emotions that we instill in our children with the threat of punishment and bribing rewards. The gods/leaders would expect no less.

How come children instinctively know this is the wrong way to be and resist it? Are they closer to the truth than we are?

Give them real love and compassion by teaching them sharing and caring and not fear, indifference and obedience training. These are human beings, not some tool of their gods/parents or slave of the system. Give them what they really want- security, freedom, instruction, purpose and meaning- and most of all, your company. This sounds a lot better than fear and insecurity with a bandaid pie-in-the-sky promise of authorities attentiveness. Big god has become big Brother!

Imagine there is nothing THERE, and the world begins to look more real HERE. Imagine that when you die there is nowhere to hurry to and nature becomes more real. I know people would rather live with illusion, but it's getting too serious to count on unseen forces to do the work- It is time for us as humans to admit that we have a lot of work to do and we don't need some book(s) to tell us we're in trouble. We need to define the problems and needs our society must face and answer those questions we wish to ignore. Like organized religion- what does it really stand for and how can we improve on it to make it safer.

Perhaps it is not belief that is the problem, but what we have been taught to believe!

You might also want to review what Jesse has to say about religion and its oppressive nature. Think about it!

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Last edited by DO.g's on Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:28 pm 
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I keep hearing, "Children need punishment." "The only way children will learn is if they are properly punished."
You're right. They do need punishment.
My argument is simply that physical punishment is not the right way. Hurting another person physically on a daily basis is abuse.

People keep mentioning how intelligent children are. If they're so intelligent, then why do you find in necessary to use physical punishment on them instead of some more intelligent type of punishment? Would they not understand that?

Why do I think I know how to properly motivate a child? ..Because I have seen both sides of punishment, both non violent and violent. I was punished physically, and my mom continues to punish my younger siblings physically. I see my younger brother becoming a more angry person as time goes on, and I know it is to blame. Physical punishment may work on some kids (I am not saying it is ok), but it doesn't for others. What gives a school the right or experience to know which kids those are?
MPO: If a parent wants to use physcial punishment on their own child, there is no law preventing them from doing so in their own home. When people want to allow others to punish someone else's child then it crosses the line.
The fact that I have no kids does not mean that I know nothing of motivation or discipline. Sadie asked me if I had ever potty trained a puppy and smacked it with a newspaper for discipline. The fact that I said I had, but that I didn't smack it, left that example in the dust. I guess the fact that I can train a dog properly without using physical punishment, still means I know nothing of motivation or discipline. Growing up, I babysat my younger siblings on a daily basis, and despite the fact that my mom used physical punishment, I did not. They weren't angels all the time, but my methods worked.
Sorry, though, I forgot that in order to understand motivation and discipline towards children I have to have one.

Expelling at school is a nono huh? Expelling a student for throwing a chair at other students is wrong? Expelling a student for continually damaging school property by flooding is wrong? Expelling a student for ripping a sink out the wall is WRONG? ...Maybe that's one of the reasons kids are becoming so unrulely in school today.

Frustration leads to anger, which leads to rage. Rage is built in people from students acting just like this. It's not something that I condemn teachers for, because it's understandable. When this is allowed to happen though, it's no wonder people don't want to let school administators/teachers have the authority to punish kids physically.
And Dee, I never once said principals sat around all day in their office drinking coffe and blowing smoke up some one's rear. That statement was completely out there.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:41 pm 
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DO.g's wrote:
It is obvious this site is dividing between those seeking the truth and those who would have us believe in their illusions. Spare the rod- notice that most of those who are advocating violence as a solution to bad behaviour are of a religious inclination?
If children see parents, administrators, presidents, soldiers, using violence to solve their problems then what will children do? You figure it out. And as for jesus? I know he loves me- He loves me so much that he wants to KILL me. Hows he going to come back to earth? With LOVE and a TWO EDGED SWORD.
Fear is the great mind killer and no one should live in fear. We need change, and if that means getting rid of the old evil god then that is what we must do. We don't need violence in this world and having violent gods will never help us to evolve past this primitive state we are hanging onto. The inclination is to ban and exorcise- our ability to eliminate debate by censure. This is an example of EXTREMISM and is all to consistent with religious/political extremist dogma. Don't fall for this doctrines of jealousy and shame. Threats and bribes are too much the god game to be taken seriously and imposed on children. We have to grow free of these society imposed restraints. Give the children what they want and need, not what you think they want and need. Perhaps we've forgotten what it was to be a child. Small and vulnerable a target for anyone, fear and insecurity are natural emotions that we instill in our children with the threat of punishment and bribing rewards. The gods/leaders would expect no less.
How come children instinctively know this is the wrong way to be and resist it? Are they closer to the truth than we are?
Give them real love and compassion by teaching them sharing and caring and not fear, indifference and obedience training. These are human beings, not some tool of their gods/parents or slave of the system. Give them what they really want- security, freedom, instruction, purpose and meaning- and most of all, your company. This sounds a lot better than fear and insecurity with a bandaid pie-in-the-sky promise of authorities attentiveness. Big god has become big Brother!
Perhaps it is not belief that is the problem, but what we have been taught to believe!



Great post DO.g.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:05 pm 
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Growing up, I babysat my younger siblings on a daily basis, and despite the fact that my mom used physical punishment, I did not. They weren't angels all the time, but my methods worked.


Did you have to say, "If you do that again, or don't stop, I will tell mom." Mom being the one who used physical punishment, they feared the consequence.

That was the whole point I was trying to make with bringing corporal punishment back into the schools.

I don't want kids to fear me, the principal, or anyone else. I want them to learn there are consequences to fear.

I knew my mother loved me, I feared the consequences she would bestow on me BECAUSE of MY actions.

I don't fear cops. I do however, fear the consequences of breaking a law.

Permissive parents and teachers are giving kids a false sense of no boundries.

My daughter was telling me about an incident with her best friend. They were sitting and talking and the friends 5 year old child walked in and asked for cookie. The mother said, "I will get you one in a little while." About a minute passed and the child said, "When are you going to get off your fat butt and get me my cookie!" The mother went right into the kitchen and get the cookie. My daughter said she had to leave before she said something her friend would have taken offense to.

Jobot you keep asking if it is OK for a man to hit a woman. No. They are equals and should both come with the knowledge and ability to make proper decisions. Children are NOT equal to adults. Children are in the learning phases of life and have to be taught how to make good choices. They have to learn their are consequences for bad choices.

I wonder why some cops get mean after being on the force for awhile? Why don't they come up to someone they are going to arrest and say, "Please get out of the car now. I am going to arrest you. If you are nice I won't throw you on the ground to handcuff you."?

If my child continously did dangerous things like putting sharp objects in electric sockets, jump out of the second story windows, play with knives, etc. I would be arrested for endangering my child. I could say, "but I put him in time out and talked to him, it just didn't work." Do you think anyone would beleive I did my job as a parent?

What is the difference between smacking a childs hand and smacking a childs behind? Aren't they both a form of "violence"? Aren't they both "hitting"? I think it was jobot who said if I smacked kids hands nothing would come of that. I would get fired!

I would never hit a child, not even in self defense. I just want to be able to send a child out of my class to someplace where they "fear" the "consequence".

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:37 pm 
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sadie53 wrote:
Did you have to say, "If you do that again, or don't stop, I will tell mom." Mom being the one who used physical punishment, they feared the consequence.


I should have seen that coming.
No, I didn't. I would tell them that the punishment would continue to the next day if necessary. Things like that.


Sadie53 wrote:
I don't want kids to fear me, the principal, or anyone else. I want them to learn there are consequences to fear.


I agree with you on one point here. Fear is not always a bad thing to have. Fearing punishment is fine. I simply don't agree that physical punishment is a good thing to scare a child with.


Sadie53 wrote:
Jobot you keep asking if it is OK for a man to hit a woman. No. They are equals and should both come with the knowledge and ability to make proper decisions. Children are NOT equal to adults. Children are in the learning phases of life and have to be taught how to make good choices. They have to learn their are consequences for bad choices.


Men and women are equals. That was my point in saying that I don't approve of the one sided view that "men shouldn't hit women."
Children are equals in the sense that they, like adults, are human beings. They may not have the same responcibilities as adults, but they fear physical punishment no less than adults do. (Please do not take this out of context to say that because I believe children are equals in a sense, I want children to be treated like adults in all ways.)


Sadie53 wrote:
What is the difference between smacking a childs hand and smacking a childs behind? Aren't they both a form of "violence"? Aren't they both "hitting"? I think it was jobot who said if I smacked kids hands nothing would come of that. I would get fired!


Both are a form of violence. The diffence is that your butt is a sexual part of your body, like I mentioned before. You would not allow a stranger to touch your butt, but your hand would be ok. Your children are not strangers to you, I know, but they do deserve to have personal parts of their bodies respected nonetheless.
If you smacked a kid's hand you would get fired. You're right. That's what you want changed. (I do not mean that you personally want to smack kids' hands...)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:06 pm 
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Since everyone seems convinced on their opinion, im surprised no one has consulted the experts.


Quote:
WASHINGTON -- Corporal punishment remains a widely used discipline technique in most American families, but it has also been a subject of controversy within the child development and psychological communities. In a large-scale meta-analysis of 88 studies, psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University, looked at both positive and negative behaviors in children that were associated with corporal punishment. Her research and commentaries on her work are published in the July issue of Psychological Bulletin, published by the American Psychological Association....

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.

The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent. Gershoff believes that these two strongest associations model the complexity of the debate around corporal punishment.

"That these two disparate constructs should show the strongest links to corporal punishment underlines the controversy over this practice. There is general consensus that corporal punishment is effective in getting children to comply immediately while at the same time there is caution from child abuse researchers that corporal punishment by its nature can escalate into physical maltreatment," Gershoff writes....

While the nature of the analyses prohibits causally linking corporal punishment with the child behaviors, Gershoff also summarizes a large body of literature on parenting that suggests why corporal punishment may actually cause negative outcomes for children. For one, corporal punishment on its own does not teach children right from wrong. Secondly, although it makes children afraid to disobey when parents are present, when parents are not present to administer the punishment those same children will misbehave.

In commentary published along with the Gershoff study, George W. Holden, PhD, of the University of Texas at Austin, writes that Gershoff's findings "reflect the growing body of evidence indicating that corporal punishment does no good and may even cause harm." Holden submits that the psychological community should not be advocating spanking as a discipline tool for parents....


http://www.apa.org/journals/bul/july02-release.html


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MPO: If a parent wants to use physcial punishment on their own child, there is no law preventing them from doing so in their own home. When people want to allow others to punish someone else's child then it crosses the line.
The fact that I have no kids does not mean that I know nothing of motivation or discipline. Sadie asked me if I had ever potty trained a puppy and smacked it with a newspaper for discipline. The fact that I said I had, but that I didn't smack it, left that example in the dust. I guess the fact that I can train a dog properly without using physical punishment, still means I know nothing of motivation or discipline. Growing up, I babysat my younger siblings on a daily basis, and despite the fact that my mom used physical punishment, I did not. They weren't angels all the time, but my methods worked.

So, for sadies example of the dog to be relevant, we must assume that the behavior of dogs and the behaviors of humans are the same. We all know this is not the case.

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as we must also take into consideration that just because someone disciplined a dog, does not mean they can a child.


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And just because somebody does not have a child, does not mean that they know nothing about discipline.

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jobot wrote:
And just because somebody does not have a child, does not mean that they know nothing about discipline.


But does anyone care that the experts say spanking isnt exactly the best option for discipline?

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nygreenguy wrote:
But does anyone care that the experts say spanking isnt exactly the best option for discipline?


I appreciate the fact that experts say "spanking isn't exactly the best option for discipline." For sure!
IMO, not only is it not the best option, but it's harmful emotially and physically, and violates their body...whether they are hit on the butt, hand, or whereever.

Nyg, I'm sure that you realize why I said what I said in my last post.

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Early in my career, I did paddle a few kids...and that was limited to one swat on his or her backside with a small wooden paddle (I still have it) and a witness was always present...usually the principal or another teacher. It gave me no pleasure, believe me, and it didn't seem to make much of a difference in the behavior of the kids, either. So, I began to look for a better way to manage my students. One thing that I found that really worked for me was to allow the kids to have a voice in rule-making. Most of the time, the kids walk into a classroom and the rules are the first thing they see. They've had nothing to do with the creation of those rules, but they have to obey them just the same. Also, often there might be anywhere from 6 to 15 rules!

I began by preparing a "What I Expect From YOU" and a "What You Can Expect From ME" bulletin board. On the first day of school, the kids and I agreed on 3-5 rules and consequences for breaking the rules. Then, and only then, did the classroom rules go up on the bulletin board. The first thing I put on my side of the board was that they could expect OUR rules to be enforced and everyone would be treated fairly. Another thing I told them they could expect from me was homework four nights a week...but none on Fri. Sat, or Sun...weekends were for family time and taking a break from schoolwork. I also told them that they decided what kind of student they were going to be...not me. I told them they had to do the learning....I'd do the teaching, but they'd have to meet me half way....and that meant working together everyday of the school year.

When a group of kids, regardless of age, has a voice in how they are governed, it seems to make them more responsible and more willing to obey rules they've all had a part in creating.

As time went on, we'd sometimes modify the rules, but it was always done the same way...a big classroom conference with everyone having a chance to participate. Ownership in one's education can sure make a big difference...and it also worked with my own kids.

I didn't need to paddle a child during the last 25 years I taught. That's not saying I didn't have some little darlings who tried to see how far they could push the boundaries...but the rules were always consistently enforced and fairness never went out the window. Also, the other kids would put a lot of pressure on their fellow student who wasn't playing by the rules that they had helped to create...peer pressure is a great helper.

Rewards for good behavior were a weekly thing, too....no punishment for those who chose to break the rules, but they didn't receive the reward...often some extra recess or getting to go next door to watch a movie for the last 30 minutes of the day. The rule breakers would stay in the room with me and we'd do some extra studying. That was one of the consequences agreed upon by the whole class.

Another thing I hated to see any teacher do was to punish kids by making them write sentences . That was almost worse than a spanking. How can a teacher ever get a kid to like to write creatively when he or she has been punished with WRITING? Doesn't make sense...yet teachers did it all the time. Not me..I'd tell my kids they'd never have to write as punishment because I wanted them to LIKE writing....stories, poetry, journals, letters, etc.

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"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."
Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help.
That other party, they work for people who don't need help.
That's all there is to it."

~Harry S. Truman


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