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Dilemma
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Author:  jobot [ Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Dilemma

MPO:
It is just as okay for a man to hit a woman as it is for a woman to hit a man.
This does not mean that I approve of either sex hitting the other.
I simply don't believe that women are so small, weak, and helpless that they can't defend themselves against other women or men.
I believe it is degrading to women to put them in that category.


So, this is my dilemma:
I do not understand how some people can believe that it is not okay to hit women, but it is okay to punish children by hitting them.
How is that not completely backwards?

Hitting someone isn't right, whether you're an adult male, an adult female, a male child, or a female child.

Author:  lefty [ Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

In my opinion, and based on the personal experience of being both physically and mentally abused, hitting is NEVER acceptable.

I have an example of a person who exhibited bad behavior and poor choices his entire childhood who was constantly spanked/paddled--whatever, to no avail. The person is my brother who is now in prison for robbing a bank at the age of 18. I love him and with the gift of hindsight, see with great clarity the fact that hitting him for his behaviors was the worst idea to try to change his behavior. He has grown into a very angry young man (he's been in prison for 6 years now and has about 22 left to go). While prison has increased his anger, it didn't start it. My mother and step-father attempting to beat him in place of understand him or ever try to get him help is what continuously fueled his bad behavior. Of course as an 18 year old, he was certainly responsible for his choices, but as a 4, 5, 6, 7...etc...year old, something besides beating him should have been employed.

I certainly don't know exactly what the answer is for getting unruly children to behave is, but I cannot be convinced that abusing them is the answer. I am (un)lucky enough to have experienced this same abuse both through witnessing my brother's pains as well as my own. I will never do this to my son and when I feel the extreme anger and frustration that children naturally sometimes bring, I have to distance myself out of a desire to never harm him. The things that were done to me as a child as "punshiment" I can certify have scared me severely and deeply and to this day (at nearly 31 years old) I find them shadowing my daily life. Fear is not a deterent that works on children. Yes, they may modify what they do, but when replacing love and respect with fear, you lose your child.

Author:  sadie53 [ Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

Depends. In self defense? Yes.

To punish a child so they learn to NEVER do it again? Yes

I had a friend whose child would run into the street every time he got the chance. He would pull away from her and run like hell, laughing and never caring where he was running. He was almost hit by a car. She scolded, used time out, took things away - nothing worked.

He did it again and caused the driver to wreck while swerving to miss him. My friend marched him over to her father's parked car and slammed his body into it. Now that is drastic and some would call it abuse. She hurt him. But she also saved his life. He never ran from her or into a road again.

Quote:
Fear is not a deterent that works on children.


Worked for me. My mother always told me she would knock me into the middle of next week. I believed her. If I thought my mother would find out, I DIDN'T DO whatever it was. But I knew she loved me.

Author:  jobot [ Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

Self defense is different. You know that as well as I do.


Men punish women by hitting them sometimes, and now you want to punish children by hitting them. Does that mean that as long as you're punishing somebody by hitting them it's okay?


Please explain to me how you can possibly believe that hitting a child, even as a form of punishment, is okay if hitting a woman is not?


It's a simple question. Is hitting okay?

Author:  jobot [ Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:51 pm ]
Post subject: 

Lefty, thanks for your honest and I'm sure, hard, response.

Author:  nygreenguy [ Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

With me, my dead would whoop the living shit out of me. But I didnt do things, and think "i shouldnt do this or ill get spanked" I just tried to learn how to not get caught.


If things like spanking worked, then things like the death penalty should also work. The fear of death should outweigh the fear of spanking, especially in a rational adults mind. The problem is, in reality, neither work.

Author:  sadie53 [ Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
It's a simple question. Is hitting okay?


It is NOT a simple question. It depends on the circumstances.

Just to hit someone for no reason? No

Sometimes you have to do something you don't want to do and it breaks your heart. What works for some parents and children does not always work for others. You have to use what works.

Bending a child over your lap and smacking their behind does not fall in the same catagory as hitting. Using a belt, or some utensil is abuse. Smacking them in the back, or in the face, is abuse. Their butt is well padded and their pride is more often hurt than their butt.

Author:  jobot [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:00 am ]
Post subject: 

sadie53 wrote:
Sometimes you have to do something you don't want to do and it breaks your heart.



Then it's not worth doing.

Author:  jobot [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:01 am ]
Post subject: 

I still would like to know, though, how hitting a child, even as a form of punishment, is okay if hitting a woman is not?

Author:  nygreenguy [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:15 am ]
Post subject: 

sadie53 wrote:
Quote:
It's a simple question. Is hitting okay?


It is NOT a simple question. It depends on the circumstances.

Just to hit someone for no reason? No

Sometimes you have to do something you don't want to do and it breaks your heart. What works for some parents and children does not always work for others. You have to use what works.

Bending a child over your lap and smacking their behind does not fall in the same catagory as hitting. Using a belt, or some utensil is abuse. Smacking them in the back, or in the face, is abuse. Their butt is well padded and their pride is more often hurt than their butt.



The questions is WHY. WHY hit your kid? Perhaps the reason it feels bad, it because you know it is wrong. I just dont see how it works, and if anyone claims it does work, is it possible to prove its the spanking that caused the good behavior?

Author:  jobot [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:17 am ]
Post subject: 

nygreenguy wrote:
and if anyone claims it does work, is it possible to prove its the spanking that caused the good behavior?


..Or is it simply fearing the one administering the punishment?

And if so, does that make you happy? ..The fact that your child fears you?



One more thing to break your heart. .........Ya, that sounds like a great thing to do.

Author:  sadie53 [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:41 am ]
Post subject: 

I think all of you have answered my question about why kids are running the homes and schools today. I also now realize why prisons are so full. You are confusing hitting, punishment, discipline, abuse, love, and anything else.

Keep on doing what you have been doing and you are going to keep on getting what you have been getting.

Parents stopped spanking in the 80's and the schools stopped corporal punishment during that time also. Juvenile delinquency is at an all time high. Do the research. There may be a connection.

Did any of you ever house break a puppy? Did you ever roll up a newspaper and swat it on the behind? Or is that animal abuse?

Author:  jobot [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:59 am ]
Post subject: 

And I think people who approve of physical punishment have lost touch with reality. How can doing something that breaks your heart be right?

sadie53 wrote:
Did any of you ever house break a puppy? Did you ever roll up a newspaper and swat it on the behind? Or is that animal abuse?


Yes, it is animal abuse.
I have housebroken a puppy before, and no I never hit it as a form of punishment when it made a puddle on the carpet. There's other things you can do without involving physical punishment. And they work.
Have you ever seen a dog's reaction to their owner, when they've used physical forms of punishment on them? It's complete terror. It makes me sick. It's not something that I would ever want to see from my pet or child.
I believe in equal treatment of all: man, woman, child and animal.


ONCE AGAIN I ASK, AS WAS THE REASON FOR MY STARTING THIS THREAD, WHY IS IT OK TO HIT A CHILD BUT NOT A WOMAN?
There is no right answer to this question....because it is not okay to hit one person, but not another.

Author:  lefty [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:13 am ]
Post subject: 

About corporal punishment, I found a very interesting website that promotes "no spank" policies. It can be found here: http://www.nospank.net/main.htm I was tempted to paste some of the articles and photos here, but I guess it would be better for those who are interested to follow the link and look and read themselves.

I think a large part of the problem in allowing spanking is that some people may be capable of determining that a specific amount of force may only sting and startle, while someone else may not particularly care what amount of force is used, all the way to the person who WANTS to harm and does so easily.

I have attempted to abstain from getting into these several "arguments" that are going on on the board right now, but I will say a few things. Contrary to what a fellow member feared, I think that these discussions probably bring in more people than our usual talks do, so I would not fear that we are driving people away. Controversy is far more interesting than all of us simply agreeing; also, these are tough subjects and people are allowed to duke it out in search of their own opinions and beliefs the realitive safety of this forum.

Author:  jobot [ Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

lefty wrote:
About corporal punishment, I found a very interesting website that promotes "no spank" policies. It can be found here: http://www.nospank.net/main.htm I was tempted to paste some of the articles and photos here, but I guess it would be better for those who are interested to follow the link and look and read themselves.


I'm not sure if people who believe in spanking will actually look at that site, Lefty. So I'll copy and paste. :)


Quote:
As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.



Image


If somebody can read a story like this, of NORMAL BUTT PADDLING IN SCHOOL, and think "That's how it should be"... They don't deserve to have a kid.

http://www.nospank.net/martin.htm

Come on...give it a try..read it.

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