What with the traitors on both sides of the house, like Feinstein and Paul etc. (you know they're traitors), their betrayal of the voters and parties they represent and of course most of the other pretend politicians on both sides of the floor. Perhaps its time to let these phoneys and charlatans find out what the people really want and need. This is the thread for others who would try to rule.

It's about time people got over their prejudices and started remembering who cares about the people. If you look back in time for consistently caring about the people of America, and for that part the world, there is only one person who has saved more lives than any other candidate from one of our most potent killing machines, besides the #1 killer in the world- small arms fire. I am of course talking about the single most important force in changing the way we get around safely in our vehicles.

Of course I mean Ralph Nader- and to listen to him speak is a reminder of what decency, sincerity and honesty should be about.

Read this article and see foir yourself his basic presentation of reforms that would change the way America does politics, internally and externally.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... /09/131226

An hour long and so is worse than any politicians long winded rant, but coming from someone with REAL intelligence, who isn't completely bought and sold- His breath of fresh air is truly what we need!!! A Zephyr for sure. (not the car- another lemon)

He has some great things to say about the political system as it stands, stacked higher than the WTC, this is another falling that requires precision controlled demolition to bring down. But if you ain't got that, you know-Pizazz and camera appeal- well you just don't make it in politics. Last of the honest politicians. It will be if Feinstein gets her way with voting. Bitch slut.

Fire them all!!!!! They're all a bunch of lying traitors!!

Remember, it doesn't matter who votes, only matters who (or what!) counts the votes! Vote Independant- vote for electoral change- the roulette wheel is fixed, the cards are stacked against us and we need a new marshall in town to straighten out the mess we're in and run the bad guys out of town!

Ralph Nader, the American legend, is a better choice than any of the other pretenders to the crown. Donate and get on the bandwagon. If you wonder why he isn't heard more, it's because people won't support what makes sense, only what makes money. Give him more money so he can help people make sense of things again.

Thomas Payne would have voted Nader so why can't you? Hopefully he'll throw his hat into the ring. America Needs a third party- a peoples party- not a corporate run plutocratic hegemony. America needs to have real choices.

Hate to tell you this DO.g's, but I detest Ralph Nader! If the contest were between Nader and Cheney, I would be hard put to have a favorite.

Lots of reasons. Don't have links so won't go into them here. But he is as big a pile of shit as any of the neocons we are fighting now.

I have wondered how he managed to pull the wool over Amy Goodman's eyes. She sure lost my confidence when she started kissing up to this piece of crap.

Talk is cheap. And he knows how to say the right things to get what he wants. And what he wants ISN'T what is best for America!

Agree with dori here. Nader never learned how to drive an automobile, nor did he ever passed a test to obtain a driver's licenses. He destroyed the Corvair (1962 GM car), claiming it was unsafe. I own three of them --1963, 1965, and 1966 models) and loved to drive them.

Nader only runs for president to get enough money to live on for four years, and runs again.. Let's see, does this make him running for president 3 or 4 times?

Certainly not against the law yet to run for president as many times as you want. Too bad they can't get airtime like the official sanctioned clowns.

He still hasn't thrown his hat in, so this applies. Any problems with what he talked about? Seemed pretty truthful to me. Much more honest than say Ron Paul.

He also put the rabbit in the pot. Good move.

Most cars were unsafe at any speed but he helped people survive the horrific accidents those boats from the past were prone to. Floating dinosaurs should be extinct anyway.

Oh well, at least he's honest- not like Hillary and Edwards- already trying to rig the game. Oh well, that's politics.

This is about also rans anyway, and most of what I hear about Ralph is cleaner than most politicians. I'm sure we can brand most politicians pieces of shit, and they would outsize Ralph's pile easily.

LOL. I see that:)

I would like to know what are the complaints some people here have against Nader. What are you afraid of? For 40 years, he fight for social justice. He have dedicated his life to the defence of citizens against the absolute power of big corporations who drives the world.

He presents a program radically different from the 2 other main parties in all fields. He wants to revoke Patriot Act, found a universal medical cover, raise the minimum wages, improve the rights of all the minorities, set up another energy policy, promote education for all. Settle a social policy is possible if one stops financing the so-called "War on terror" with waste of hundreds of billion dollars. Rare politician to have decided against the military aggression in Iraq, he asks for a fast troops withdrawal and for the return of sovereignty of your country.

The USA claim to govern the whole planet. Therefore the USA election concern all the citizens of the World who should logically take part to the vote. Let me say that millions of people outside US would vote for him if that was possible. For years, Nader promote the interests of people instead of those of big corporations and military-industrial-complex.

My favorite also ran was Eugene McCarthy.

Being in politics is like being a football coach. You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important.
Eugene McCarthy

It is dangerous for a national candidate to say things that people might remember.
Eugene McCarthy

The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is inefficiency. An efficient bureaucracy is the greatest threat to liberty.
Eugene McCarthy, Time magazine, Feb. 12, 1979

Here's a site with a list of all the hopefuls to the presidency. I think it would be an interesting debate to get all these candidates together and see what the fringes would like to see happen. Reality TV should be so authentic and purposeful as these dedicated patriots are.

http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/Issue ... /index.php


Shoe, McCarthy must have been a whale of a character. When you're in a position of also ran it's like the weight of formality on your shoulders is unbearable. Loved the football quote. The games on and it's already fixed before it began.

Jeez, I guess I'm showing my age here. Eugene McCarthy was quite a character. Too bad none of our leaders have any character these days.

McCarthy knew the game was fixed, he was willing to admit the fact, yet his dedication made him continue to play the fixed game with some hope that he could, in some small way, affect the outcome. Just as Ralph Nader is doing.

I agree with about 95% of everything Ralph Nader says. But, when the insane Republicans impeached our president for a blow job, I stopped voting third party, and became something I never thought I would be, a Democrat.

I am still way pissed off that these psychos ruined our political discourse so much that I had to quit voting my conscience and had to become a straight party line voting Democrat.

All I can hope is that the insane Republicans have stewed themselves in their own juices so much, that they will now go the way of the Federalists (Monarchists) before them, and I can go back to voting for the candidate of my choice, rather than just the candidate who I think might beat the right-wing, fascist, theocratic, nutjobs put up by the Grand Old Party.

Ah! the Clinton years! He granted the armament industry a budget higher than the average budget during the cold war. Continuing the policy of Bush 1, who wanted to "bring back Iraq to the stone age", he hardened the embargo and multiplied the bombings targeted against the vital infrastructures of the Iraqi cities. The lack of drinking water, drugs and food consecutive to this destruction and with the embargo caused a chronic malnutrition, the multiplication of the infectious diseases, and epidemics of cholera. This policy made more than one million deaths, including 500000 children. (is it necessary to put a link about that here?) Ask an Iraqi if he was better than Bush 1 and 2… But of course, a blow job was not a reason for impeachment. Poor Bill, he needed to be supported in those terrible years.


I understand this is the better way to change nothing; or do I miss something?

I understand there are many 'all politicians are alike' people around, but I still don't see the sameness of Bernie Sanders and George W Bush, Ted Kennedy and Dick Cheney, Paul Wellstone and Ronald Reagan. The are different. Yes, there are not enough of the different ones, but they are still different.

I went looking for the information on how Nader stiffed his workers and found a few of the other things I detest about Nader there.

"How can we go out and try to save the world from people when we're grinding people to death all the time?"-- John Esposito, original staffer at Nader's Center for the Study of Responsive Law

"Nader strikes me as conforming to the stereotype people have of sociologists and politicians: they bleed for the poor and downtrodden but mistreat their maids." -- David Sanford

Like many Washington politicians, Ralph Nader's groups have long taken advantage of earnest young ambitious workers, with two differences; Nader was more controlling and paid far less. In 1976, many were paid $5,000 per year and only a few at the top made as much as $20,000. (Nader's organizations refuse to release information on what they pay workers.) Meanwhile, Nader required daily logs of everything the workers did from 7am to 9pm, plus monthly summaries of these logs. If you didn't turn in your logs, you didn't get paid.

Nader often called workers after midnight or on sunny weekend days, with instructions, or just to test their willingness to work hard. When a revolt over working conditions broke out in the Congress Project and students demanded a group session with Nader, he contemptuously scheduled a meeting at 7:00 am, believing that few would show up.

9 marriages of staffers broke up under the pressure, including John and Nancy Esposito's, Mark Green's, Sid Wolfe's, and Davitt McAteer's.

What makes this meanness worse is that Nader claims to be defending workers -- for example in opposing the GATT treaty -- and that his organizations have a huge surplus of money, accumulating millions of dollar with which Ralph has played the stock market.


There are so many more reasons I can't stand this man. (Using the word losely here.) His secrecy, his holier than thou attitude, his ability to snow people who never look below the surface.

George W Bush sounded great to many people in 2000. He was the 'compassionate conservative'. He was going to do everything right.

As I said, talk is cheap.

I found that bit on abusing workers at the following link. I am sure there are things there that are spin, but many of the things I read are not at all new to me. I remember them from when Nader was riding his white horse back in the 60s. And I repeat, I can't stand this conceited piece of trash.

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#overwork

Yes dori, I know what you're saying. We all carry biases and opinions we adopted from our experiences. But were they hearsay or just programmed information with intent to damage image. What your article spoke of was many years ago- thirty years can bring many changes. The actions he may have engaged in were unfair labour practices but no one died from them. On the same web site you posted I read up about the Clintons and it says they may have murdered people to get to the top. So if this is true and what they said about Nader is true, which is worse? Which shows more corruption?

http://www.realchange.org -Check out the other candidates as well!!

I have been reading and enjoying jasper2000's posts on Political essays by James Russell Lowell about "The Place of the Independant in Politics" which is a must read- all five parts so far. On todays episode- part 5- he gives a scathing report on people who run for office-

So it is up to us to stand up to these criminals because that is what they are. They are hand picked to serve us but do the bidding of those who put them in power, beholding to their provider, at the pleasure of their leader so to speak, and not the people who supposedly elect them. But the system is rigged as both sides are obliging to the same individuals. It continues-

Now I'm not into conformity as this system eats conformists, I'm a total revisionist. The whole system must be scrapped and the lessons learned from its pitfalls used to create a new constitution that rewards actions more than rhetoric and lies. That is why I recommend voting only for candidatess that want real election and representation reforms.

This means getting rid of all parties and lobbyists and formulating a system that rewards better citizens participation in the political process. If we continue to adhere to this present system with the people that have been drawn into politics through ass kissing techniques, then we will be burdened by this incompetance at the top until the whole system fails and collapses under its own preponderance of greed. Continuing-
At least he goes on to say that there is hope-

I should have just put the post here as it is all good. Read on here- http://tvnewslies.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=8901

The denouement jasper uses is quite profound and adheres to his beliefs-
1945- the death of America as people your age knew it. Did you notice it yet? Excuse me but I was unaware of many things 1945 brought, like our food choices and present supplies(GM, farmed fish, corporate run meat suppliers,etc.), which came out of world war 2. This is where they learned to enrich white bread to fortify our troops and so our modern food industry was born. What other flaws of modernity have we adopted since then? How about the events that led us into Iraq today being established then, as we adopted our policy of inevitable world slavery, thanks to our fine herd of politicians we have inherited. Oh well forget change, everythings hunky dorey.


Finally jesse had a post the other day that tries to explain his take on our representative government, as if to make Lowells words prophetic.

Nice to know that there are some good politicians who manage to use the system to try to work to correct it. Too bad they probably number no better than 5% though( I think I'm being generous here). Oh well forget about independants- the rest of the voting public has. What do they contribute? Perhaps something closer to the truth in a mendacious field of dreams?

No wonder the MSM and established powers don't want them. They would make the Dems and Repugs look as evil and greedy as they've become while enjoying their monopoly on power. Power that they only channel from another source of control. Great system.

The independant seems to be the only voice of reason left in a political field that has produced a morally bankrupt and ethically challenged country of lies.

I have been reading jaspar for as long as I have been able to. He has a poetic way of saying things people don't really want to hear.

Where do I start... Our problems are because people are human. Humans are corrupt.

The Supreme Court said corporations are people. Can you believe that?

Corrupt.

Corporations want to and do own. You name it, airwaves, rights to our land, water and air, food we grow, places it is sold, the way it is raised and handeled. As I said, you name it, corporations own it. Including people, especially people in important places.

We are on the same side in this DO.g's, but we still see things differently. There is more we agree on than disagree on. And yes, I do know that is a gossip site I had quoted--but the character of a person like self indulgent power want-to-bes' doesn't really change. He is still the same whining, sniviling, self serving, 'I have all the right answers' piece of crap he has always been. I read about all the people there, I am still for President 'Moonbeam' as he would be called if Kucinich were to magically gain the Presidency. (In my dreams...)

As for other third party candidates, third parties appeal only to people who think. Most people vote 'for the party my parents voted for'. Want to talk to my neighbors?

We have to find a way to clean the money out of politics.

Good luck to us.

I vote for Bernie Sanders!!!

Yes dori I agree. Did you notice the Kusinich one was perfect until you realize that, being a catholic, he doesn't want abortions to be legal. Everything else I read is fine and not so far fetched, including universal health care coming up near the end. I never thought I would agree with Shirley McLain but here I am a humanist gaia lover.

I guess one strike against him is not bad. It should be that way because what kind of boring lives/site would we have if we only agreed with each other all the time and everybody thought the same- that has to be Bush's fondest dream- as long as he's the implanter of information.

Perhaps this should be made a sticky like the other Repub and Dems potential candidates. One should know about all the contestants vying for election anyway. Makes for a more complete picture. As I hear of new candidates, I'll add them. The independant may someday be our only hope. But fixating on parties was the problem even Lowell talked about in 1888, so it's nothing new.

My neighbours don't discuss politics and are very nice and polite- we all just get along fine. They allow me to do whatever I want and I do the same to them. If our needs intersect, we share our thoughts/concerns and so far it has been fine. I don't think I'd like your neighbours and would probably have to move away as they got more insistent about their rights, so would I.

Just the way I am. I live in a small town 20 miles outside of a large city and people seem to be interested in shedding their fears and fixing their lives/homes- much better pasttime. It's not Pleasantville, but it's as close as I can find. Still you have to watch what you say and do- small town logic.

Glad you have a better place to live than I do. I would move in a second, but don't have the resources or a place to go. I would end up in one of those egg crates they put up for old people, where everyone lives breathing down everyone else's neck. I would hate that even more...

My political training came from years working for a meticulously honest right wing town Supervisor. I worked on her campaign--writing campaign material, letters to the editor (I am hated for more reasons than one here), making out ALL the mailing labels, etc.

Towns don't have anything to do with social situations, just fiscal ones. I wouldn't vote for her if she had the chance to change social issues. But she was totally honest and watched every dime as though it were coming out of her pocket. She saved the town hundreds of thousands of dollars. But she was up against the town cronies.

Crony groups aren't any different in town, state or federal governments. Everything I see in the federal government is the same as it was and is in town government--only on a more grand scale. None of this surprises me, it does me.

But then, I used to read the Bible religiously (pun intended). Humans haven't changed one bit from the days of old biblical history. We are all right there, every type of human nature is spelled out.

It is technology that has changed, not people. We now have the ability to destroy more, and faster, and oddly that is what we have used our giant brains to do--destroy. Some of it is good, like destroying disease, but most of it is horrible.

What terrible values too many in the human race have!