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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:07 pm 
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CrimsonEagle wrote:
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While I rarely get to where I was trying to get to, I usually find I get right where I need to be."


Wow, I outright love this statement.


Yeah, me too. I actually have started doing that. Oddly enough, it seems to work.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:51 pm 
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Well I would like a big BANG!!!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:53 am 
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TUTUTKAMEN wrote:
Well I would like a big BANG!!!!!!!!!!


ha...even a little one would be suffice. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:54 pm 
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YUP, :P :P 8) Us Yankee's got a stick together :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:04 pm 
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Just a few notes on truth and proof, for the fledgling truthseekers. As most of you are on the way up the slippery slope, it is your mission to investigate, but not to ignore the realities that life throws our way. Casting off the absurd and suggestive, like conventional wisdoms, religions, what our parents teach us, is a given as they are mostly based in fear of death or the attempts at understanding of the unknown- as in everyone wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die, aliens are here psychosis we adopt from birth, and along the way. Realities don't include hysteria or suggestions, like ghosts or the supernatural assumption that the god we have adopted has any place in reality. These are just absurd notions of suggestive persuasions, fluff filler at cocktail parties, designed for our compliance and assurance that the world is an unknown and obedience is important. These tenets hold no grasp to real proof or truth. Science is our closest bet on what is happening, as it prefers to base its decisions on trial and error, working towards a plausible conclusion, even though it is a profit based field, as is religion and politics. In other words they care about profits before people, but I tend to respect science over the other two.

Quote:
Akl- Actually, there is a lot more proof to back up an approach of some type of moderating intellegence in the universe than there is to back up a pure athiest's arguments, but that isn't the point. There is no proof for or against, and atheism is a BELIEF. To say that a spiriutuality is a lie, or a belief in a lie is way outr of bounds, dude. Off hand, I would say that atheism hasn't taught you much about tolerence and compassion.


Your comments are once again total bullshit. the concept of an organised, watchmaker type universe has been refuted for over 100 years as bunk. That we live in an area of the universe that supports life, at this time, is more likely a mere coincidence of time and space than it is a clockwork design. We are here now, so get used to it. There is more to chaos and the space between than your simple mind can grasp. You're fond of quoting buddhism, how about " the universe is but a mere illusion".

DO.g's wrote:
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I always say that "Sometimes you have to worship the god you have, not the one you want." Be that as it may, like mga I don't wan't to regress into a theocratic discussion on the whereabouts of this black hole called belief, which like so many black holes, has been the birthplace of the concept of universal creations and other similtudes. The latest theories on string theory and dark matter are more closely related to what is measurably happening to the universe.


gOD's are a mystery best forgotten in our superstitious past. We have grown beyond this primitive concept, but it keeps us adhered to myths and fiction better than any other invented reality we can come up with. It is to laugh at. A speculative hope filled guess at best, it can be used to drum up hatred and bigotry any time it is required. A herd glue. Sheeple need it.

Alk-
Quote:
There is no proof the universe is expanding. There is a ton of conflicting evidence, actually. It appears to be expanding, that is a theory, not a fact. Although I don't really find much satisfaction in the static universe theory, it has a sizable amount of evidence, and many very respectable astronomers consider it *more likely* than expansion. Further, the eventuality of every atomic particle in the universe being as far apart as it can get (the cold death of the universe) is still a theory. This will lead to a collapsing universe. Faster than light travel must be possible, since there is no planet with life anywhere near our vicinity, and we have been visited at least once, and no one is likely to travel for thousands of years on the off chance of finding something interesting. Current research aims to create a way to *abolish mass*, since it is mass that creates the barrier. Some experiments have already been done that have possibly lowered mass. We are still many centuries away from the kind of power we would need to manifest this on anything larger than a sub atomic particle, but none the less, 50 years ago a computer cost several million dollars, so who knows what will happen in 100 years.


There is proof about expansion and dark matter/energy. I will give you some more info on this further on.


Alk--
Quote:
Absolutely. Truth is a relative phrase. There is no universal truth, no fact that exists in all places at all times. There are only possibility waves that collapse when a certain energy level is reached. Miracles happen every day (actually, 4 times a day) and every one of them is within the eventual reach of reasoning. Magic is only science that hasn't been explained.


Absolute truth is "out there", we haven't put it together yet. It may not be ours to fully discover, but it definitely doesn't encompass some gOD concept , that absorbs the purpose of discovering it, by its magnanimous sense of meaning overpowering the reason. There is an explanation for everything. We just aren't privy to it. Yet.

And so called "miracles are fabricated or natural events that haven't been explained. Like ghosts and aliens. Fabrications of wishful, hopeful, empty, depressed, desperate searching souls, trying to validate their excuses for their empty meaningless existences, their fear of death and lack of purpose. "There has to be more to this". Why?How? That is what we're here to ask and try to figure out, after all.

Like the reasons we adopt phony gods as a sense of purpose and direction because we have no real direction in our quest for truth and knowledge, so we make up a truth that makes sense and allays our fears.

The day the Exorcist came out, a christmas day, 40 people applied for exorcisms. No one really cared much before that. The power of suggestion and fabricated fear.

Alk-
Quote:
Actually, there is a lot more proof to back up an approach of some type of moderating intellegence in the universe than there is to back up a pure athiest's arguments, but that isn't the point. There is no proof for or against, and atheism is a BELIEF. To say that a spiriutuality is a lie, or a belief in a lie is way outr of bounds, dude. Off hand, I would say that atheism hasn't taught you much about tolerence and compassion.



DO.g's
Quote:
--Proof? What proof? Show us your proof. What "A lot more proof"? At one point you speak of truth here, then you throw out more fluff bullshit. Atheism is a belief structure, that is correct, based in what is to be believed. Just because one doesn't believe the absurd notions put forward by the present consentual god being, doesn't mean one sees things the way it's structured for one to believe things. Don't tell me you believe the absurd little fairy tales in the bible? I don't see where a tiny mind like yours, as some kind of moral accounting judge gets off on thinking somehow you hold some kind of degree in truth judging. Thats like saying you have learned how to judge truth by believing the bullshit the bible spews, as if it has some merit in truth. Talk about no tolerance and compassion. You think Capitalism is tolerant and compassionate. Hah ha ha. Now that would be a miracle.


Proof please for your silly watchmaker theories, please. As for me being an atheist. What makes you an expert in what I believe. Just because I don't adhere to your concepts of a watchmaker god or purport to believe in an excuse for hate, murder and destruction of others culture and beliefs, and the theft of their wealth and resources by a god or gods that claim to be stronger and better than someone elses god or gods, doesn't justify you trying to identify my beliefs as atheist. I have very strong beliefs that are grounded in reality. Care to review my posts sometime and criticise me. You are welcome to. Since you know nothing about me, get real. I think that the reality of people that engage in this kind of branding, is to show a weak irrascible terpitude towards others that invariably reflects who THEY really are: and you branded yourself as intolerant and without compassion. A phony weak kneed capitalist opportunist who only feels compassion when the "Spirit" hits you. Like so many phony christians out there. Not that you're a christian, you're too wishy washy to decide even on that, or commit to an honest answer.

The soldiers standing over the bodies of burning corpses, shouting taunts at Taliban soldiers to come out, as their god is weaker, and this is what their beliefs get them. The TV pictures of starving Africans, homeless people, tsunami victims- so donations are made to help. but out of that, only a small percentage makes it to the victims, as you sit esconsed in your privilege and whiteness with your god and chicken leg firmly planted up your white privileged ass. This is the American way.

Forcing your god, the concept of a dead saviour, which you helped to kill, as a reminder to those that oppose, that "If we'd do it to him, You're next!"
Comply or else. Resistance is futlile. We are the smart bomb!

Some choice. Your god concepts are no better than any throughout history, as you marketed Animals, spirits, Zeus, Jupiter Mars, Baal etc. as the real ones at the time. It is just the next great deity to claim the top seat, that is all, so who cares- they're all the same bullshit. Top god is really the top DO.g. Just an excuse to wage wars and feel safe at home.


Alk-
Quote:
There is no proof the universe is expanding. There is a ton of conflicting evidence, actually. It appears to be expanding, that is a theory, not a fact. Although I don't really find much satisfaction in the static universe theory, it has a sizable amount of evidence, and many very respectable astronomers consider it *more likely* than expansion.


Do.g's-
Quote:
Gee no proof. The only non proof is your absurd statements based on no proof. More Fluff. The only thing that can be proven to be non proof is the bible. Based on total faith and hope in the absurd.

Google in "Expanding universe dark matter". You only get "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,690,000 for Expanding universe dark matter. (0.53 seconds)." Man, What is the contents of your brains? Kidneys?


Alk- Quote:
Miracles happen every day (actually, 4 times a day) and every one of them is within the eventual reach of reasoning. Magic is only science that hasn't been explained.


There's your kidneys at work again. You base your ideas on the kinesthetic. Not real. Kidneys may look like brains, but they certainly don't have the same function Urine trouble if you think they do. Miracles happen at a fixed rate? Something to do with quantum mechanics and the law of averages? Where do you get your facts from? A cracker jack box? 4 times a day? More filler? What gives? Sister Teresa is a fine example of fabricating miracles to get her in the "Book of Saints". Have you any idea what nonsense they used to get her in? She was aware near the end of her life as to what they were up to. Miracles. What bogus hokum will you come up with next.
Famous quotes from Sister T.

The Wisdom Of Mother Teresa
AIDS: The retribution for improper sexual misconduct.
POVERTY; It is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot. The world is much helped by the suffering of poor people.
HOMELESSNESS; The problems facing us are due to the fact that we are too distant from Jesus.
UNEMPLOYMENT; First we must learn to love one another.(This one almost makes some sense)
ABORTION; Is the great enemy of peace.(?)
OVERPOPULATION; There is no problem of overpopulation, only [of] gOD's will.
The 'kindly' little nuns bedside manner was demonstrated during a filmed interview, where she told of her attendance to a patient suffering unbearable pain from terminal cancer.
Smiling at the cameras, she told of her counsel to the patient. "You are suffering like christ on the cross, so jesus must be kissing you."
"Then please tell him to stop kissing me". he said.
From- 'The Missionary Position' By Christopher Hitchins.

The womans' obviously a saint and could perform 'miracles'. Just not on this poor unfortunate. Why do I bother with you. You ignore everything I say, about compassion and caring, as you adhere to your cognitive dissonance and privilege. You have been brainwashed and absorbed into your absurd concepts. Your hegemony and pedagogy are complete as to make you impervious to reality and its concepts. Probably think you have to not disappoint your parents and be a failure in their eyes. You don't have to live your life according to their standards. Look at the hopeless world they built and left for you and me. You are actually free to make your own path. You just can't figure out anything outside the box you've found as your comfort zone. Life, liberty and the pursuit of your own concept of hedonism. You're obviously not worth the effort, so I may as well give up on you. You have given up as you say that "we don't live in that world YET", and become one more volunteer slave for the system, instead of imagining a world, abetter world that we could create out of this mess. The time IS now and we CAN do it. Don't be so negative in your gred concepts. Lennon asked us to "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can, No greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man". We have that in our power. We just prefer to think it is unattainable because it advantages us, For now.

Try saying something somewhat realistic if you're going to post, not something based on faith and hope.

Alkemi:
Quote:
proof is what one wants to believe. a bible, for example, is not proof to me, whereas for another, it may be all they need.


You're so easily swayed this way and that it's a wonder you aren't seasick on a daily basis. Wishy washy.

Quote:
Alk- The more deeply we uncover reality, the more there seems to be some sense of order. In the last decades even the realm of choas has been revealed as layers of order. For the atheist, this comes down to the Turing test. How can you be sure that the order is the result of random factors and the usual and expected abberations of chaos, and not directed, even if that direction is no more than the input a simple fractal formula? Simply put, there is no test. While I tended towards atheism in my younger years, I cannot manage it anymore. I have to admit, the order present in the Universe may have a conscious source, and that is, in its most basic form, a definition of God.

I find the most concise work is in the theories put forth in David Bohm's research on implicit and explicit orders, as well as his work on non-locality, a response to the EPR paradox. To me, some of it has so much in common with Taoist thought that I can agree with Josephson, who said of it (if it proves accurate, much of it has yet to be tested) , at the very least, it seemed to be on the verge of putting the concept of consciousness into a scientific framework. His work, though largely theoretical in nature, has been variously vilified and praised by his peers. He has attracted such names as Einstein (who praised his "Quantum Mechanics" as the best description of the subject), Paul Davis, and Nobel winner Brian Josephson. His work is not to be taken lightly, and the implications of his work, particularly his theory of implicit order, are astounding, especially in light of recent developments in Superstring and Chaos Theory.
If there is some interest I would be glad to summerize his work, I am actually quite familiar with it.


Gee what a great idea. Please summarise for us. How about some bullshit knowledge for us based on your favorite subject- " I Don't know!" But then fill it up with more shit that makes no sense. As for chaos having order. All structure has order at its minutest form(micro, alpha), otherwise it would not exist(Macro, omega). This doesn't mean someone or something structured it. It is just what makes it be, it exists from its basics. Just like you or me. So you are basically saying nothing here. As per usual.

Alk-
Quote:
The problem, for me, comes down to what IS God? My definition is *the consciousness that directs the order of the Universe* and so, if Science were to discover,for instance, that all the order of the Universe was based on a fractal formula, or based on the same type of ordering as DNA is in life (my favored theory), this would fill my definition of God ( I believe it would do likewise for the Taoist). I don't imagine God is or even COULD be an entity that can be addressed, I agree with Jim on that one ("You can not petition the Lord with Prayer"). God is, to me, a concept that expresses the order implied by the Universe, the singular *universal truth* if you will allow it.


You never give up spewing verbal diarrhea. Look up at the top of the page. It says"Learn to spot Deception" I have learned how to spot you and your garbage. White privilege, supremacist. You're not a fool as you claim, for a fool sometimes still reasons truth out. This is a TRUTH site, so why are you here? Is being an idiot more to the point of your purpose, as you sway this way and that with your meaning, plagiarising one idea and fitting it in to some fractal context that doesn't make any sense, but to reward you and your views about your non commitment to the realities in life.


Alk-
Quote:
Miracles happen every day (actually, 4 times a day) and every one of them is within the eventual reach of reasoning. Magic is only science that hasn't been explained. The rate at which miracles occur is an average of reported events. It has been variously reported (even in the MSM) but I think Talbot's work on Holographic theory has a fair bit of evidence in it. Dossey covers it in his books ad nauseaum, as well as that moron Weil. They count as *miracles* spontanious remission and or healing (like the guy who went from full blown dying of pneumonia AIDS to HIV negative in something like a week, I have met and talked to this person PERSONALLY as well as reviewed his history, and its true, he did heal a most serious condition). A miracle is anything that is *unnatural* or *supernautral* according to our current view of the physical world. I am not implying it will always be so. Some day these *miracles* may be daily events, as common place as "take two Motrin and call me in the morning", but as of today science has NO IDEA what happened. And I am unwilling to discount anything, the fact is we don't KNOW what happened.


We've gone over this crap a few times. All can be explained, but to the simple mind, like yours, it seems like something real. Illusion and the mysteries of the universe.

DO.g's-
Quote:
Miracles happen at a fixed rate? Something to do with quantum mechanics and the law of averages? Where do you get your facts from? A cracker jack box? 4 times a day? More filler? What gives?

Try saying something somewhat realistic if you're going to post, not something based on faith and hope.



Akl-
Quote:
The theory of an expanding universe is just that, a theory. It stands beside the theory of a static universe, and both are, as I said, theories. I don't care if you get every web page on the internet saying otherwise. In fact, I just posted a link on a thread of comments in favor of a static universe, which pointed out the top 10 problems with an expanding universe. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that the expanding Universe theory is more satisfying, but it is still just a theory. Sorry.


Sorry you are, because once again you're wrong. You want to believe in vaguely stated concepts because it substantiates your pretentious ideals of prejudice and privilege as a white, hetero, middleclass, advantaged American.

Perhaps you should read this
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 322-1.html

White Dwarf? What's that? How does that have to do with anything?

Now I know that you demand proof but you can't get it all right all the time, so when theories are exposed as truth, the facts must be definitive and precise. Unfortunately this isn't always an option we can exercise, but we can only believe what is presented as real. Take the concepts you have for an expanding universe, and a static one. You see a difference and it must be one or the other. What if it is both? The latest concepts state that some parts of the universe are static, closer to the Big Bang, while the outer regions are expanding faster away from it, thus leaving an area that is perhaps going to collapse, and another that is racing away, like a smoke ring escaping critical mass. The universe in this concept, is kind of shaped like a bell. It may be a theory, BUT SO WAS THE PLANETS REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN AND THE EARTH BEING ROUND. They were all proven to be fact, despite religious beliefs and restrictions, the opposition of nay sayers etc.

Alk--
Quote:
By the way, feel free to leave out the insults. They add nothing to your arguments, and mostly make you look immature. I invite you to question, to be skeptical, be angry, whatever spins your wheels, but some of your comments go over the line, and I really find them uncalled for.


Yeah, well start saying something real and I'll be very respectful. If you have no truth to give, then just shut up. Truth hurts, don't it. Like I said, I've got way too much to do, much more important things, but I just can't stand your bullshit, so I'll give you this to mull over.

Like it says-
Quote:
"1/2 the truth is still a lie. Don't be fooled. Learn to spot deception. An informed opinion is a wise opinion. GET INFORMED; GET WISE.

Good luck Alk- you need it.

Quote:
Crimson or Alky said- "While I rarely get to where I was trying to get to, I usually find I get right where I need to be."

Alky said- "Yeah, me too. I actually have started doing that. Oddly enough, it seems to work."


Yeah sure does. There and no further. Sure works, wishy washy.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:41 am 
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Question: "Did God use the "big bang" to create the universe?"



Answer: Some Christians are vehemently opposed to the "Big Bang Theory." They view it as an attempt to explain the origin of the universe apart from God. Others ascribe to the Big Bang Theory, with the view that it was God Himself who caused the "Big Bang." God, in His infinite wisdom and power, could have chosen to use a Big Bang method to create the universe, but He did not. The reason that can be absolutely stated is that the Bible argues against such a method. Here are some of the contradictions between the Bible and the Big Bang theory:



In Genesis 1, God created the earth before the sun and stars. The Big Bang theory requires it to be the other way around. In Genesis 1, God creates the earth, sun, moon, stars, plant life, animal life, and mankind in a span of six 24-hour days. The Big Bang theory requires billions of years. In Genesis 1, God created all matter by His spoken word. The Big Bang theory begins with matter already in existence and never explains the initial source or cause of matter.



In Genesis 1, God breathed life into the body of the perfectly created Adam. The Big Bang theory requires billions of years, and billions of chance circumstances, to get around to the first human; and it never can explain how the first microscopic life form happened to "evolve" from a non-living atom. In the Bible, God is eternal and the matter and the universe are not. There are different versions of the Big Bang theory, but in most of them the universe and/or matter is eternal. In Genesis 1, the existence of God is assumed, "In the beginning God..." The true purpose of the Big Bang theory is to deny His existence. We can accept certain aspects of the Big Bang Theory - but the theory itself is entirely atheistic.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:44 am 
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Question: "What does the Bible say about Creation vs. evolution?"



Answer: It is not the purpose of this article to present a scientific argument in the Creation vs. evolution debate. If you are looking for scientific arguments for Creation and/or against evolution, we highly recommend Answers in Genesis - http://www.answersingenesis.org, and the Institute for Creation Research – http://www.icr.org. The purpose of this article is to explain why, according to the Bible, the Creation vs. Evolution debate even exists. Romans 1:25 declares, "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen."



A key factor that we all must recognize is that the vast majority of scientists who believe in evolution are also atheists or agnostics. There are some who hold to some form of theistic evolution, and others who take a deistic view of God (God exists but is not involved in the world...everything proceeds along a natural course). There are some who genuinely and honestly look at the data and arrive at the conclusion that evolution betters fits with the data. Again, though, these represent an insignificant portion of scientists who advocate evolution. The vast majority of evolutionary scientists hold that life evolved entirely without ANY intervention of a higher Being. Evolution is by definition a naturalistic science.



For atheism to be true, there must be an alternate explanation for how the universe and life came into existence. Although beliefs in some form of evolution predated Charles Darwin, Darwin was the first to develop a plausible model for how evolution could have occurred - natural selection. Darwin once identified himself as a Christian, but later renounced the Christian faith and the existence of God as a result of some tragedies that took place in his life. Evolution was "invented" by an atheist. Darwin's goal was not to disprove God's existence, but that is one of the end results of the theory of evolution. Evolution is an enabler of atheism. Evolutionary scientists today likely would not admit that their goal is to give an alternate explanation of the origins of life, and thereby to give a foundation for atheism. However, according to the Bible, that is exactly why the theory of evolution exists.



The Bible tells us, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1; 53:1). The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in a Creator God, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). According to the Bible, anyone who denies the existence of God is a fool. Why, then, are so many people, including some Christians, willing to accept that evolutionary scientists are unbiased interpreters of scientific data? According to the Bible, they are all fools! Foolishness does not imply a lack of intelligence. Most evolutionary scientists are brilliant intellectually. Foolishness indicates an inability to properly apply knowledge. Proverbs 1:7 tells us, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."



Evolutionary scientists mock Creation and/or Intelligent Design as unscientific and not worthy of scientific examination. In order for something to be considered a "science," they argue, it must be able to be observed and tested, it must be "naturalistic." Creation is by definition "supernatural." God, and the supernatural, cannot be observed or tested (so the argument goes), therefore Creation and/or Intelligent Design cannot be considered a science. As a result, all data is filtered through the preconceived, presupposed, and pre-accepted theory of evolution, without alternate explanations being considered.



However, the origin of the universe and the origin of life cannot be tested or observed. Both Creation and evolution are faith-based systems when they speak of origins. Neither can be tested because we cannot go back billions (or thousands) of years to observe the origin of the universe and life in the universe. Evolutionary scientists reject Creation on grounds that would logically force them to also reject evolution as a "scientific" explanation of origins. Evolution, at least in regards to origins, does not fit the definition of “science” any more than Creation does. Evolution is supposedly the only explanation of origins that can be tested; therefore, it is the only theory of origins that can be considered "scientific." This is foolishness! Scientists who advocate evolution are rejecting a plausible theory of origins without even honestly examining its merits, because it does not fit their illogically narrow definition of "science."



If Creation is true, then there is a Creator to Whom we are accountable. Evolution is an enabler for atheism. Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God. Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe. Evolution is the “creation theory” for the “religion” of atheism. According to the Bible, the choice is clear. We can believe the Word of our omnipotent and omniscient God, or we can believe the illogically biased, "scientific" explanations of fools.

Recommended Resource: Battle for the Beginning: Creation, Evolution, and the Bible by John MacArthur.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:59 am 
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Rome just announced there is no contradiction between evolution and creationism, as received from God in the Bible. As the Apostolitic Church, and appointed successors to St. Peter's ministry, I am afraid that amounts to the official word from the Xians.

Jeesh, could you dumbass Xians at least agree on the same fairy tale?

I am sick to death of the blatant ignorance you idiots spew forth, in contradiction of not only attestable observation, but common sense.

You're basicly saying *God* is running a rigged carny game?

How the hell can you even contemplate that for an instant before nausea sets in?

As you moronic throwbacks to the Middle Ages toss our society back into the mindless drone mentality of the completely illiterate masses who weren't ALLOWED to read the Bible, America is going down the tubes. Our finest minds are going over seas where research and technology are improving and the environment for truly inquisitive investigations of reality is more conducive to a dialogue between peers, as oppsed to the ravings of some lunatic without the sense to bathe. Our economy suffers, our people suffer, and in the name of this great and wonderful *Messiah*, tens of thousands have been slaughtered by OUR brothers and sisters, and surely many more to come.

What would Jesus do? I guess the answer to that is *Use DU and Cruise Missles on Innocent Civilians, and starve out the rest.* Wonderful.

You have about as much right to talk about *science* as a dog has joining a chess club. The sad thing is, the dog might really want to learn chess, you choose your ignorant existence by openly repressing the vast majority of experience you have every day to live in your blindered *Universe*.

STFU with fairy tales and daydreams. At a time when Intellegent Design is actually being considered by our best and brightest, and we may, in the very near future, look *God* in the face, I suggest you prepare yourself for a very rude awakening, because by all accounts, God won't be anything you can even comprehend, much less petition with prayer. Your whoring of this ancient and very throughly investigated and debunked pile of rabbit droppings sickens those of us who actually aspire to understand the teaching of Jesus.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:48 am 
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Of course, Bucky the real fool disappears from the scene. All his arguments are self serving and immature and not dynamic or open minded. He quotes from his dialectic bible of falsehoods as a force of truth to be respected. It is a standard form of confirming his own existence when he is so weak and small as to be insignificant. This is why he can only cut and paste and run, because his own arguments are so weak as to be insignificant. Note that so much of his problems stem form unresolved sexual problems or the adherence to mental disorders. Like his quote about "liberalism is a mental disorder" or his most recent equating a blowjob to the deceptions of our leaders and their associates, covering up the resulting death and destruction of so many livesin Iraq. There is no comparison here, but in true form of the neo-con mind, they draw a parallel to the lie instead of the severity of consequences of the act of the lie.

Bucky the Prophet sez-
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The Bible tells us, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1; 53:1). The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in a Creator God, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). According to the Bible, anyone who denies the existence of God is a fool.


Yes , there he goes being the fool again using a quote that shows how foolish one can be by using a quote from an unverifiable source to prove what fools people who don't believe think he is. Talk about dumbing down for us. These quote prove what fools you believers are. Your gods' invisible qualities prove that he doesn't exist so what are you basing your faith on? That it is clearly seen? Yes, what(?) has been made? An understanding that there is no god, to a thinking person, as described by your phony bible. According to a rational viewpoint, an invisible entity does not exist so anyone who admits to the existence of your description of a god is a fool. The rest of what you say is insignificant prattle and fluff and shows what a fool you really are.

Your childish desire to remain attached to protecting figures is a fantasy structure from which a man must be set free if he is to grow to maturity. The right religion, can, in principle, foster an individual's highest potentialities, but religion in practice tends to relapse into being neurotic.

Humans have a need for a stable frame of reference. Religion apparently fills this need. In effect, humans crave answers to questions that no other source of knowledge has an answer to, which only religion may seem to answer. However, a sense of free will must be given in order for religion to appear healthy. An authoritarian notion of religion appears detrimental.

The idea of God as being a version of the father image and religious belief is at its bottom, infantile and neurotic, do not depend upon the speculative accounts of prehistory and biblical history to dress up a version of the origin and nature of religion. Authoritarian religion, is dysfunctional and alienates man from himself. The question of the existence of God is unanswerable. It is an obsession of obedience to authority, and may explain why you have a blind devotion to god and Bush.

There is a distinction between healthy-minded and sick-souled religiousness. Individuals predisposed to healthymindedness tend to ignore the evil in the world and focus on the positive and the good. In contrast, individuals predisposed to having a sick-souled religion are unable to ignore evil and suffering, and need a unifying experience, religious or otherwise, to reconcile good and evil. In other words, you ignore the obvious and adhere to the illusion.

It seems like you are trying to compensate for inferiorities that you perceive in yourself. A lack of power often lies at the root of feelings of inferiority. One way that religion enters into this picture is through our beliefs in God, which are characteristic of our tendency to strive for perfection and superiority. For example, in many religions God is considered to be perfect and omnipotent, and commands people likewise to be perfect. If we too achieve perfection, we become one with God. By identifying with God in this way, we compensate for our imperfections and feelings of inferiority. Our ideas about God are important indicators of how we view the world. These ideas have changed over time, as our vision of the world -and our place in it- has changed. The traditional belief that people were placed deliberately on earth as God's ultimate creation, is being replaced with the idea that people have evolved by natural selection. This coincides with a view of God not as a real being, but as an abstract representation of nature's forces. In this way, our view of God has changed from one that was concrete and specific to one that is more general. This is a relatively ineffective perception of God because it is so general that it fails to convey a strong sense of direction and purpose. That god, (or the idea of god) motivates people to act, and that those actions do have real consequences for ourselves and for others is important because it embodies our goals and directs our social interactions.

Compared to science, another social movement, religion is more advanced because it motivates people more effectively. Only when science begins to capture the same religious fervor and zealousness, and promotes the welfare of all segments of society, will the two be more equal in people's eyes. But science, we hope, will never stoop to such underhanded means, such as fear, threats and bribes to get its point across.

The "omnipotence of feeling" in human nature leads to a variety of religious faith : the faith in providence, which is a form of confidence in the infinite value of one's own existence; faith in miracle, the confidence that the gods are unfettered by natural necessity and can realize one's wishes in an instant; and faith in immortality, the certainty that the gods will not permit the individual to perish. This is the beauty of the illusion of faith and belief. Not fact, but imagination.

Imagination is the original organ of religion. The imagination, unlike abstract thought, produces images that have the power to stir the feelings and emotions. Human beings are sensuous creatures who require sensuous images as vehicles for their hopes and dreams. The Christian imagination, however, closes its eyes to nature, separates the personified essence of nature entirely from sense perception and transforms what was originally nature into an abstract unified metaphysical being. attributing the psychological hold of Christianity on humans to lie in its assurance of personal recognition by the Divine and the hope of immortality.

As a conscious being bent on its own fulfillment, the person has purposes, needs, and desires, the shadowside of which is the awareness that these may be frustrated. Hence, all wishes are accompanied by anxiety and fear, a pervading sense of the nothingness that clings to all human activity. With the wish that this nothingness be removed, the conception of the gods arises.

The gods represent the unity of willing and being able to succeed; that wish of meaning and purpose that is missing in your life. A god is simply a being in which this distinction has been annulled. Where there are no wishes there are no gods. I esteem that your psychological basis for belief are hinged in fear, loneliness and powerlessness, more akin to depression than actual faith or belief, and your neurological adherence to this neurosis would perhaps be better suited to seeing a psychologist about your traumas as a youth and not a religion. What did your dominant parent figure do to you to make you a simpleton follower of authority? How did you end up believing in such foolish things that have no basis in fact or truth. We can see that you admit to following blindly not only an invisible god figure but a morally bankrupt administration that has only been a detriment to the truth that is required for real devotion. Like the Republican neo- con PNAC agenda you follow and admire, your faith in a deity of hate and revenge is a fulfilling of your inner pain and wish to get even. For you to become a mature voice in America, we don't need another preacher of falsehoods and threats, a person who preaches love but adheres to wars philosophy. We need the crippled people to come out and admit they need to do the work on themselves that will give them the strength to face authority standing and not bent on theirs knees in blind devotion and obedience, to be walked on by the gumboots of our fearless leaders and angry gods.

This non-rational and non-sensory experience or feeling that you express keeps you searching for answers whose primary and immediate objective is outside the self. The search for god is a mystery that is both fascinating and terrifying at the same time; A mystery that causes trembling and fascination, attempting to explain that inexpressible and perhaps supernatural emotional reaction of wonder, drawing us to seemingly ordinary and/or religious experiences of grace. This sense of emotional wonder appears evident at the root of all religious experiences. Through this emotional wonder, we suspend our rational mind for non-rational possibilites. It is you who can't shake free of your prison of infancy. It is you who must question your stance of faith and belief. It is you that has no sense of purpose or meaning. Don't bother telling us what fools we are- we can see who the real fooled one is. It is you Bucky.

When will you wake up and know thyself feeble human?

If an individual believes in and performs some form of religious activities, and those actions happen to work, then that practice appears the proper choice for the individual. However, if the processes of some form of religion have little efficacy, then there is no rationality for continuing the practice.

Of course Bucky is too much of a coward to do this, or even respond to this himself.




[/quote]


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:21 am 
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The book of Proverbs has a few wise verses on believers befriending non-believers: "The righteous should choose his friends carefully, for the way of the wicked leads them astray" (v12:26). We should stay away from foolish people (vs. 13:20, 14:7) and people who lose their temper easily (22:24), and keep away from the rebellious (24:21). All these things represent those who have not been saved. "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness" (2Cor 6:14)? 1Corinthians 15:33 tells us that bad company corrupts good character. Unbelievers are slaves to sin (John 8:34), and Christians are slaves to God (1Cor 7:22). If we become deeply involved (either by friendship or a romantic relationship) as Christians with non-Christians, we are setting ourselves up for turmoil. It can (and does often) cause the Christian to stumble in their walk, fall back into a sinful life, and also turn others away from God (by misrepresenting God and Christianity).



Although these close relationships are not recommended, it does not mean we turn our noses up and ignore unbelievers either. 2 Timothy 2:24-26 tells us that as servants of the Lord, we are to be kind to and not quarrel with anyone. We should gently teach those who oppose the truth, and be patient with difficult people. Matthew 5:16 tells us “...let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly father.” We should serve unbelievers so that they may see God through us and turn to Him in praise. James 5:16 says that there is great power in the prayer of a righteous person, so bring your concerns for unbelievers before God and He will listen.



Many people have been saved because of the prayers and service of Christians, so don't turn your back on unbelievers. Having any kind of intimate relationship with an unbeliever can quickly and easily turn into something that is a hindrance to your walk with Christ. We are called to evangelize the lost, not be intimate with them. There is nothing wrong with building quality friendships with unbelievers – but the primary focus of such a relationship should be to win them to Christ, by sharing the Gospel with them and demonstrating salvation in your life.

so in short dog , even though you resort to calling me all sorts of names we can still be friends.

don't shoot the messager

science did not create , God did

is this short life here really worth trying to discredit the truth , personally your beliefs are your choices , and the choices in this short life span will span an eternity of life or death. it's our own free will and i am not one to push this on you or anybody else i am only telling you that there is more than science . science can only explain proven theory's .
so you are telling me that this is it , their is nothing more and after you die thats it. i don't believe that.

when a person dies, the spirit of that person is brought into one of two places. If the person is a true believer (not one who merely knows ABOUT Jesus, but one who has established a living relationship with Christ through faith), his spirit is ushered into the presence of Christ in heaven (Philippians 1:21-23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) and he will be reunited with his body (after it has been transformed into an immortal body at the time Christ “snatches” away his own from the coming judgment upon the earth at the time of the rapture [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]). If one is not a believer in Christ and does not have his name written in the Lamb’s book of life, his spirit is put in a place of torment (Luke 16:23-24) that we call hell, to await his sentencing for his works in what is called the “Great White Throne Judgment.” (No one measures up to God’s righteous standard on the merit of their works, according to Romans 3:10-23.)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:14 pm 
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buckshot wrote:
"The righteous should choose his friends carefully, for the way of the wicked leads them astray" (v12:26).

We should stay away from foolish people (vs. 13:20, 14:7) and people who lose their temper easily (22:24), and keep away from the rebellious (24:21).

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. (2Cor 6:14)?

Christians are slaves to God (1Cor 7:22).

Image

If we become deeply involved (either by friendship or a romantic relationship) as Christians with non-Christians, we are setting ourselves up for turmoil. It can (and does often) cause the Christian to stumble in their walk,


Wow! You Christians must have the world's most fragile faith! No wonder you guys are always railing against any perceived threat to your tenuous faith. Apparently, it can be easily shattered by near proximity to non-believers!

Perhaps you should look into finding a belief system which can stand up to objective criticism, rather than walling yourselves off, in order to preserve your precarious fantasies.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:35 pm 
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Redaction criticism and higher criticism are just a few of many forms of Biblical criticism. There intent is to investigate the scriptures and to make judgments concerning their authorship, historicity, and date of writing. Most of these methods end up attempting to destroy the text of the Bible.



Biblical criticism can be broken into two major forms: higher and lower criticism. Lower criticism is an attempt to find the original wording of the text since we no longer have the original writings. Higher criticism deals with the genuineness of the text. Questions are asked such as: When was it really written? Who really wrote this text?



Many critics in these camps do not believe in the inspiration of the scriptures and therefore use these questions to dispel the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the authors of our Scriptures. They believe that our Old Testament was simply a compilation of oral traditions, and were not actually written until after Israel was taken into captivity to Babylon in 586 B.C.



Of course we can see in the scriptures that Moses wrote down the Law and the first 5 books of the Old Testament (called the Pentateuch). If these books were not really written by Moses, and not until many years after the nation of Israel was founded, these critics would be able to claim the inaccuracy of what was written, and therefore refute the authority of God's Word. Redaction criticism is the idea that the writers of the Gospels were "final compilers" of oral traditions and not actually the direct writers of the Gospels themselves. One critic who holds to the view of redaction criticism says that the purpose for their study is to find the "theological motivation" behind the author's selection and compilation of traditions or other written materials within Christianity.



Basically what we are seeing in all these forms of Biblical criticism is an attempt by some critics to separate the Holy Spirits work in the production of an accurate, reliable written document of God's Word. The writers of the scriptures explained how the scriptures came to be. "All scripture is INSPIRED by God.' (2 Timothy 3:16). God is the one who gave to men the words that He wanted to be recorded. The apostle Peter wrote, "No prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of the human will" (2 Peter 1:20,21). Here Peter is saying that these writings were not dreamed up in the mind of mind, created simply by men wanting to write down something. Peter continues, "But men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:21). The Holy Spirit told them what He wanted them to write. There is no need to criticize the authenticity of the Scriptures when we can know that God was behind the scenes directing and guiding men in what to record.



One more verse might prove interesting relating to the accuracy of the scriptures. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and BRING TO REMEMBRANCE ALL THAT I SAID" (John 14:26). Jesus here was telling His disciples that soon He would be going away, but the Holy Spirit would help them to remember what He taught here on earth so that they could later record it. God was behind the authorship of the Scriptures.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:35 pm 
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The Moral argument begins with the fact that all people recognize some moral code (that some things are right, and some things are wrong). Every time we argue over right and wrong we appeal to a higher law that we assume everyone is aware of, holds to, and is not free to arbitrarily change. Right and wrong imply a higher standard or law, and law requires a lawgiver. Because the Moral Law transcends humanity, this universal law requires a universal lawgiver. This, it is argued, is God.
In support, we see that even the most remote tribes who have been cut off from the rest of civilization observe a moral code similar to everyone else's. Although differences certainly exist in civil matters, virtues like bravery and loyalty and vices like greed and cowardice are universal. If man was responsible for that code, it would differ as much as every other thing that man has invented. Further, it is not simply a record of what mankind does - rarely does one ever live up to their own moral code. Where, then, do we get these ideas of what should be done? Romans 2:14-15 says that the moral law (or conscience) come from an ultimate lawgiver above man. If this is true then we would expect to find exactly what we have observed. This lawgiver is God.

To put it negatively, atheism provides no basis for morality, no hope, and no meaning for life. While this does not disprove atheism by itself, if the logical outworking of a belief system fails to account for what we instinctively know to be true it ought to be discarded. Without God there would be no objective basis for morality, no life, and no reason to live it. Yet all these things do exist, and so does God. Thus, the moral argument for the existence of God.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:59 pm 
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What a bunch of bullcrap. My father is an atheist, and he is one of the best people I have ever met. He just doesn't feel the need for the crutch of your god.

The commonality of moral behavior has nothing to do with your god. The world is rife with rotten Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, agnostics ect. Likewise, there are many very good people who adhere to each of these beliefs.

You, oh so righteous, Christians aren't any more or less moral than any other group of people. You are just more arrogant than most.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:22 am 
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What a bunch of bullcrap. My father is an atheist, and he is one of the best people I have ever met. He just doesn't feel the need for the crutch of your god.


well it's true the nut dosen't fall far from the tree. :lol:

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