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 Post subject: I need advice
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:44 pm 
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I have two collies a male and a female. The male is just over two years old and the femal just over a year.

The male is extremly large for a collie. Twice the normal size and I think the large size has affected his thinking power.

He is a problem dog to the point were we do not trust him to have free roam of the house in fear that he will do his business throughout the house. He has peed on the beds, the sofa's the corners of the sofa and on one rug so bad that we had to remove it. He barks at anybody that even goes past the house and when the girls are playing and he is off leash in the house, he barks at them. When somebody comes into the house and we scolled him for jumping he pees. If I raise my voice to him, he has a habit of peeing. One day I was at the computer and he was walking around the house, walked over to the side of the wall and starting shi****G, he had just been taken outside.

My problem is that the family still loves him. I on the other hand do not trust him and we have now taken to keeping him tied while in the house. I do not trust him at all. Just a few minutes ago, he was lying on the rug and started gagging and then threw up all over the brand new rug that we put in as I scolled him he peed on the rug.

Now the female has been completely housebroken from almost day one. In the year we have had her, I think she has only had accidents a couple of times and those were when she was sick, and could not help it if you know what I mean.

She was in heat a number of months ago and we wanted to bred her. We put her and the male in the basement and nothing happened. The three weeks she was in heat, he did nothing. No sniffing, no humping furniture, no excitment. Nothing.

I am at my last straw. I do not even trust him to be alone with the girls anymore. My wife thinks he is mentally not all there. Oh I have had many dogs in my time, but, have never seen a dog, lay on the floor and just stare at the wall, sometimes he looks like he has no idea what he is suppose to do. He stands at his water bowl and looks around, looks down at it and then stands there for minutes (almost like he is thinking of what he is suppose to do) then he will drink.

When we take him out to walk, he usually pees right away but, when he has to do the other he will walk back and forth a dozen or so times. By back and forth I mean in a small six foot or so straight line. Back and forth and then he will do his business.

We have had him since he was 8 weeks old and he has never been completely housebroken. When he has afree roam of the house, he has even jumped on my daughters bed and peed on the blankets. One night my daughter was sleeping and she woke up and felt the blanket was wet. He had peed there while she was sleeping.

Help..


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:14 pm 
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let me ask a few questions:

1. how often do you walk him on a leash...and i mean properly walk him?
what i mean by that is have you taught him to heel while walking?

2. do you spoil the dogs? what i mean by that is do you treat them like family members or do you treat them like dogs? i never allow my dog(s) on beds or couches or chairs.

3. when you were housebreaking him, did you use a kennel? i always recommend a kennle for anyone who has bought a puppy. they learn real quick that if they mess in a kennel, they have to live with it, so they learn to hold themselves until brought outside. because both of us worked i have raised numerous dogs like this and house breaking was never an issue. once we got home we would immediately take the dog outside and let him/her do their business.

4. the issue with your male is correctable, however you have to look at what you might be doing wrong. apparently this dog feels it's within his "rights" to relieve himself when ever or where ever he pleases.

now don't misunderstand this: a dog loves discipline. and i don't mean beating on them. they love to know who the leader is. it makes them feel secure. if they sense no leader of the 'pack", in your case the family, then he will assume the role.

i would invest in a kennel to place him in whenever you leave the house. it's not cruel..it's retraining.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:33 pm 
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Not sure what your personality is around the house DK. It could be that your dog is afraid of you. When he pee's, I'm pretty sure that its a sign of submission to the alpha of the family.



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I do not trust him at all. Just a few minutes ago, he was lying on the rug and started gagging and then threw up all over the brand new rug that we put in as I scolled him he peed on the rug.


No offense meant, but why would you scold the dog for getting sick?

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When we take him out to walk, he usually pees right away but, when he has to do the other he will walk back and forth a dozen or so times. By back and forth I mean in a small six foot or so straight line. Back and forth and then he will do his business.


This is normal.

Only thing that I could suggest is crate training. Normally you would do this when the dog was still a pup. By not doing so it will make it much harder. The dog will normally not mess where it sleeps unless it is sick.

If you do this now, I think that you are going to have a hell of a time. You are going to have to put up with a lot of whining from the dog, and you are going to have a hell of a time even getting him to go into the crate. You cant get mad at this. You have to train him without getting mad. Even if it takes you 20 min's to get him into a crate, once you do get him in praise him and give him a reward/treat. Good dog.

As soon as you take him out, take him straight outside and wait for him to do his business, then praise him again. Good dog.

Scold him when he is out of the cage and chooses to do his business in the house, then put him outside for a bit. Bad dog, No!

If you and your family is not home, the dog is in the cage, when you go to bed, the dog is in the cage. As soon as you get home, put him out. While you are home, allow him out, but if he does something wrong, command him back in the cage.

After a while, you will be able to command him back into the cage and leave the door open, he will stay until you allow him out. Use the command BED, or something else that is simple for him to learn.

He will be reluctant, but after a while he will get used to it.

You seem to have another problem though. Your dog is terrified of you. It recognizes your anger and I would guess that there are times that you are not raising your voice in anger towards the dog but towards someone/something else and the dog will pee.

All that this dog knows is that Alpha is angry, and it is scared to death that this anger will be turned on him. This is a tough one to overcome.

I have never in my life hit my dog with my hand. If she did something that was so bad that it warranted physical punishment because she kept doing it/not listening at all, I would grab a pillow off the couch. I never hurt her, just made sure that she understood that I was alpha. (better treatment than they get in the wild)

She is very well trained now. I rarely even have to raise my voice to her, I just say NO. But, when I get pissed at something and raise my voice, or swear in anger, even though it is in no way directed towards her, she will do the same thing that your dog does. She will start shaking like a leaf pee on the floor, and do what she can to stay away from me.
Really makes me feel bad, lol, I have to tell her its ok, good dog. She does not understand that it is not her that I was angry at, she only knows that I was angry.

For jumping, a knee to the chest as he jumps. Not hard, just enough to push him back.

Barking is also a tough one. Have you tried one of the anti bark collars?

I hate to tell you this, but unless your dog is really not mentally all there which I guess is possible, the dog cannot be blamed for its actions. From what I can understand through training and talking to trainers is that 99% of the time it is the fault of the owner. You have to be willing to take the time and possibly change your approach, but you can train this dog.

Something that I would advise is to go and talk to a trainer. If you can find a good one you will be AMAZED at what they can accomplish.

You said that your family still loves him, but do you? Even with his faults are you willing to try anything in order to keep this pet a part of your family?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:34 pm 
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Lol, yeah, what mga said. I was too slow

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:26 pm 
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Do I still love him? Hmmm. I might have given the impression that I have been mean to the dog and I have not. He is not the alfa male, the female dog is the alpha male in the house. She walks over to his food bowl and he walks away. She walks over to his water dish and he moves away.

The dog was crate trained and is walked almost two miles a day. He is taken to the local park where we play ball and or he just runs. The peeing is not because he is afraid. He will go upstairs jump on my daughters bed an pee.

The house breaking has been a continuous problem since we had him. He has never been completely housebroken.

He has bitten two people one of them a child.

As far as scolling him for getting sick. He was not sick he was licking the carpet and got hair in his mouth and gagged.

Now back to the question of do I still love him? I feel sorry for him. I have kept him simply because nobody else would put up with all the things that he does. Trust me there are many many more things that he does. I feel that since we have had him from a puppy it is our responsiblity to take care of him, but, when I stopped trusting him to be alone with my girls, my love went with it. I am afraid one day that my girls will be playing and he will think that are fighting and bite one of them. One day when my oldest daughter (22) and I were having a arguement, he growled and snarled.

I am wondering if he were fixed if that might not solve some of the problem. I really want to keep him. He has been a part of the family for almost three years. Will find a picture and post it of him.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:29 pm 
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lol...no, CE..you just said it much better than i did, and you added some excellent advice.

i always let the dogs know i'm boss. even when my son comes over with his black lab...but that's another story. lol

i agree that because of the dog's age, it's might be more difficult, but i don't buy into that old saying about teaching an old dog new tricks. i have a 5 year old half sheppard half rottie mutt. and recently got a cat. she has learned that the cat is not an enemy, but also a member of the pack, and she has learned that the cat may come over to her while she's eating. so no problems.

but, DK2 has to evaluate the situation as a whole. as for the dog throwing up, my dog sometimes does that...because she eats grass when i'm not watching her. as for pacing before taking a poop...man, she can walk in circles for 5 minutes before finding the right spot or position...sheesh


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:33 pm 
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just read your reply DK2......and if you truly can't trust him to be around your daughters for fear he might bite them, then you have to make a decision.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:35 pm 
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go here and explain your problem.....


http://www.the-dog-whisperers.com/signu ... Hgod5GjbKA

no one...and i mean no one can work wonders nor knows dogs better than ceasar milan!!!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:38 pm 
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as for pacing before taking a poop...man, she can walk in circles for 5 minutes before finding the right spot or position...sheesh


I did not explain if correctly. Picture a rubber ball bouncing back and forth from one wall to the next and then continuing to bounce. Not doing what dogs do. Smelling for the right spot. If you do not turn your head, you get ill watching him.

LOL

here"s a picture taken when we were traveling in the van. That is my youngest daughter on the right.

Image

I just called the Vet and have a appointment to bring him in next week. Maybe run some test on him. I really do not want to lose him and have and will do whatever it takes to keep him. Thanks for the input.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:48 pm 
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I just called the Vet and have a appointment to bring him in next week


That was going to be my first line, DK! Your dog might have some social issues, but rule out anything physical first. He might have a kidney or urinary tract infection. He might need a change in his diet, and he might just need a bit more attention.

Keep us posted...and that's a cool photo. The dog is beautiful.

Catherine

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:28 pm 
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Catherine wrote:
The dog is beautiful.

Catherine


Your little girl is pretty dern cute too! I love em when they are sleeping...ahhhhhh. Then they wake up! hjehehehe


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:22 pm 
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DarkKnight2 wrote:
Do I still love him? Hmmm. I might have given the impression that I have been mean to the dog and I have not. He is not the alfa male, the female dog is the alpha male in the house. She walks over to his food bowl and he walks away. She walks over to his water dish and he moves away.

The dog was crate trained and is walked almost two miles a day. He is taken to the local park where we play ball and or he just runs. The peeing is not because he is afraid. He will go upstairs jump on my daughters bed an pee.

The house breaking has been a continuous problem since we had him. He has never been completely housebroken.

He has bitten two people one of them a child.

As far as scolling him for getting sick. He was not sick he was licking the carpet and got hair in his mouth and gagged.

Now back to the question of do I still love him? I feel sorry for him. I have kept him simply because nobody else would put up with all the things that he does. Trust me there are many many more things that he does. I feel that since we have had him from a puppy it is our responsiblity to take care of him, but, when I stopped trusting him to be alone with my girls, my love went with it. I am afraid one day that my girls will be playing and he will think that are fighting and bite one of them. One day when my oldest daughter (22) and I were having a arguement, he growled and snarled.

I am wondering if he were fixed if that might not solve some of the problem. I really want to keep him. He has been a part of the family for almost three years. Will find a picture and post it of him.


My dog licks everything! It drives me nuts! She licks the carpet, she licks my pants, she'll lick the ENTIRE bed when I'm having sex! It's crazy. She's a chihuahua, and a specific trait for them is throat problems. On top of that she licks everything, gets cat hair in her mouth, and then chokes on it, sometimes to the point where she can't breathe. She doesn't throw up from it, though. My cat also licks himself (duh), and throws up about once every week or two, 'cause he gets so much fur stuck in his throat. The furry big boy! I would never dream at yelling at him for throwing up though. I'll harshly say "stop" to the dog when I catch her licking, but once again, would never yell at her for throwing up. If you yell at your dog for simple things like throwing up, no matter how it happened, you install fear in her. Of course she pees when you yell at her, she's scared! As far as her going to the bathroom as soon as she's just come in from doing it outside, that's different. Peeing randomly is one thing, peeing because she's scared is another. It sounds to me like it's a little of both. My advice would also be to take the dog to the vet. I think he probably does have something wrong with him, whether it's an infection or a small bladder! :P (Not sure about that one.) But even with that, I would really be careful about what you yell at him for. Animals are very sensitive, and it seems to me he's extra sensitive. I can't imagine how frustrated you are...can't imagine...but try to have some patience. Dogs are considerate, loving, and loyal. He's not trying to make you mad.

Edit: My mother is crazy in love with all animals like me. When I was 17 we got into a physical fight on both ends. Her dog (whom I had lived with and loved for nearly 10 years-and still do love) attacked me. She bit my arm, she bit my leg, and put a huge bite mark in my ass. It was there for a good year. ...That was a one time thing. ...If you have several instances of your dog attacking your family out of confusion of the seriousness of the situation, or for no apparent reason, then maybe a family environment isn't what's best for the dog or your family. You definutely don't want to endanger small childeren. That's not my decision to make though.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:55 pm 
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The first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was--veterinary. Second was--formal training. That trains the person as much as the animal.

Dog whisperer is excellent advice. I don't think there is any problem he can't handle. Whether I could follow his advice or not--questionable. He makes it look so easy, but doing this on your own is another thing.

I had a two year old small dog given to me years ago. She had never been inside, had lived her life chained to a doghouse out back of this person's house. I had to start training her at two and she had no idea the entire house was not her garden. It took a long time and a lot of patience, but yes, she did housebreak and became a wonderful companion.

I also have stray cats that live outside. They came wild and stayed wild. Two mother cats with nine kittens showed up overnight about eight years ago.

These kittens have known me since they were about as big as my thumb. They are as wild now as if they had been living in an alley for all these years. Some animals are just genetically who they are, just as people are.

Whatever you do, please keep us posted. And good luck!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:56 pm 
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The dog is beautiful.



:oops: geez....I didn't mean to NOT NOTICE the little girl, DK...I was just so focused on the collie I failed to notice her! Sorry...glad jobot had enough sense to notice and comment on how beautiful the child is....please accept my apologies. AND I agree with jobot...asleep kids do look so angelic!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:01 am 
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Sorry, I can't make the picture out. I am sure both your child and the collie are beautiful.

I didn't really mean to be so cold hearted...

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