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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:07 pm 
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then tell me...was she wearing clothes?

now, if a ghost, or a spirit to some, is their "soul" as many claim, then how do they wear clothes too? did their clothes have a soul too and when they die they go with them? and, if an ghost is a spirit, how do they physically open a window or door? i'm stumped on that one.

so, is one stuck for eternity wearing what you died in? before i get into that, i need for one of the believers here to explain the clothes thing to me first. i have many more questions related to that.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:18 pm 
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so, why did you stop with the bible? the bible isn't the truth about anything, other than it's full of parables to teach mankind how to live. in your search for "the truth" did you also happen to know that 90% of the bible was translated by european scribes who, for the most part, didn't understand how to speak or read hebrew? they therefore, ad libbed much of what they thought they were reading to suit their own convictions.

This I don't believe to be a true statement. Which bible are you speaking of when you say 90% was translated by European scribes? There are many versions of the bible and many are recent translations from original greek and latin texts. Also, I see the bible as a history book too. Even if one doesn't believe in God does that mean that the Ramses spoken of in the bible didn't exist? How does that explain his tomb and hieroglyphics showing the exodus of the Jews from Egypt? What of all the other historic figures mentioned in the bible? The bible is not the only record of many of these people.
Here's a link with some of the history of the bible. I didn't read all of it. I already have a lot of it in text in my house. THAT would be too much to type! :shock:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_tr ... _the_Bible


Last edited by Nina on Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:25 pm 
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then tell me...was she wearing clothes?

now, if a ghost, or a spirit to some, is their "soul" as many claim, then how do they wear clothes too? did their clothes have a soul too and when they die they go with them? and, if an ghost is a spirit, how do they physically open a window or door? i'm stumped on that one.

so, is one stuck for eternity wearing what you died in? before i get into that, i need for one of the believers here to explain the clothes thing to me first. i have many more questions related to that.

I don't know about the clothes. Remember I wasn't the one that saw her. She didn't open any doors. She entered into the room through an open door and exited right through a closed door into a closet. HOWEVER, she did open a window. Like I said....I have a hard time believing in ghosts. I've never seen one, but I also have a hard time not believing my spouse and mother in law. I'm still undecided on the issue.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:00 pm 
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Nina wrote:
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so, why did you stop with the bible? the bible isn't the truth about anything, other than it's full of parables to teach mankind how to live. in your search for "the truth" did you also happen to know that 90% of the bible was translated by european scribes who, for the most part, didn't understand how to speak or read hebrew? they therefore, ad libbed much of what they thought they were reading to suit their own convictions.

This I don't believe to be a true statement. Which bible are you speaking of when you say 90% was translated by European scribes? There are many versions of the bible and many are recent translations from original greek and latin texts. Also, I see the bible as a history book too. Even if one doesn't believe in God does that mean that the Ramses spoken of in the bible didn't exist? How does that explain his tomb and hyroglyphics showing the exodus of the Jews from Egypt? What of all the other historic figures mentioned in the bible? The bible is not the only record of many of these people.
Here's a link with some of the history of the bible. I didn't read all of it. I already have a lot of it in text in my house. THAT would be too much to type! :shock:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_tr ... _the_Bible


you are confusing "god" with a man called "jesus". the jews plight was historical, and no one has doubted that. i believe you are confusing several parts of the bible as well. it's true, the bible does tell historical stories, but it also tells of many tales as well. once again, the bible was written by man using the only logic he had at that time. that doesn't make it true by any means, it only makes it man's version of events as he could explain it.

let's go back to the tower of babble. bunch of people attempting to reach heaven in the clouds because that's where they thought heaven was. now, by today's standards, you would even call people crazy if you heard on the news a group of people were attempting to get to heaven by building a tower...right? of course i am. but, back then, this is what they believed because they didn't know any better....today, we do..or, most people do.

you can't take the bible for it's word...and i don't care who wrote what how long ago and what version you have in your house. it's a story book.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:04 pm 
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I don't know about the clothes. Remember I wasn't the one that saw her. She didn't open any doors. She entered into the room through an open door and exited right through a closed door into a closet. HOWEVER, she did open a window. Like I said....I have a hard time believing in ghosts. I've never seen one, but I also have a hard time not believing my spouse and mother in law. I'm still undecided on the issue.


so, tell me how a spirit, or, as some belive it to be, a soul, opens a window? since they have no physical elements, i'm finding it hard to believe that this is possible. it takes physical force to move an object and since a spirit isn't a solid mass....well, you get the picture.

i'm still curious about the clothes tho.

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 Post subject: Bible
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:05 pm 
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mga said: If people today tried to build a tower to reach heaven - would you not think they were crazy?? You may be correct in your reasoning. I respect your right to believe as you choose. True -- much of the Bible is in parables. I don't believe the Bible as a whole is meant for any one person. It's easy to get bored and think its a lot of gibberish. But , if studied we are directed to the part that relates to us as individuals concerning the circunstances at our given point in time. It was believed Albert Einstein was an idiot. It was believed the Wright Brothers were crazy - It wasen't meant for man to fly. Noah was rediculed but science has found the Ark. It did exist. It seems when scientists set out to prove or dis-prove a theory - they uncover facts that prove a lot of theories are indeed fact. My mother - bless her - believed the world was square. She cited the scripture where the angels were sent to the four corners of the earth. Her interpretation hurt no one but it proves a lot is in the interpretation or the way we choose to believe. We are all gamblers. When we get up in the AM we are gambling we will be able to repeat it tomorrow. My faith and my beliefs hurt no one. I will never judge anyone or try to tell them they must live by my standards. I do my own thinking. If my way of thinking can be proven wrong - believe me when I say I will be the first to apologize. You say that the translation from Hebrew to modern day lingo was done by people who did not understand Hebrew so I guess they done a lot of adlibbing. Where did you learn these facts? From someone who agrees with your line of thinking? Could that go back to interpretation? I repeat - I hope I never stop learning.[/quote]


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:08 pm 
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Noah was rediculed but science has found the Ark.

by all means, please post a link that shows scientists have founf the ark.

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 Post subject: Re: Bible
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:58 pm 
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The only thing the Bible does is contradict itself over and over. I wouldn't call that gibberish, I'd call it bullshit.

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mga wrote:
Noah was rediculed but science has found the Ark.

by all means, please post a link that shows scientists have found the ark.



Ya, I'd like to see that one too. LOL! Hey, mga, maybe the earth really is 6,000 years old!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:23 pm 
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As far as spirits or ghosts in the sense that your definition is using I simply can't say that I know one way or another. This vast, vast universe around us is full of strange things many we do not even partially understand yet and so I can't proclaim any side on such a tenous subject.

However there are some very interesting studies recently, one at Harvard and another at Japan. I need to research them more fully I'm not sure whether they can be found on the internet yet as we were only discussing them today in philosophy. These studies (according to my philosophy professor I still need to get my hands on them) show a statistical basis for the ability of directed intent to affect random action machines. There are already some theories and models that posit the Mind is essentially a quantum effect. This would open up the phenomenon of the EPR experiments or "spooky action at a distance" as Einstein called it.

All of this is 1 extremely tenous 2 theoretical. But if both are applicable in some manner then the possibility exists that at least a portion of identity and Mind is not resident in the substrate of the brain but in the interactions of non-local subtrate that interacts with the brain attached substrate through quantum entanglement. Such a non-local portion of Mind would theoretically at least last beyond the death of the brain as the entangled subtrate continued to interact. The potential effects of such a thing are unknown but coupled with the potential that intent can alter at some level the universe about us we can see that the possibility exists and may become clear one way or another with further enquiry.

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 Post subject: The Ark and contradictions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:55 pm 
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MGA: I will try my best to locate the information about the Ark being found. When I do you will get the information.


Jobot: Have you ever played Telephone at a party?

The Bible does not contradict itself. Take the first four books of the New Testament - Matt. - Mark - Luke and John. Four desiples who witnessed the same event. Each gave their own version.

No contradiction - confirmation that it did happen through the eyes of four different men.


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 Post subject: Nina asked about spirits wearing clothes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:32 am 
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I really have no sensible explanation for the clothing but I can truthfully
say- I believe when a spirit wants to appear they do so as we can perceive them.

All I can recall about my nephew was a radiate smile on his face. As far as facial features goes I cannot say I saw any more than the smile.

I cannot say he had any clothes on his body. That was my very first experience of that nature. I was very rattled at the time. I was shaking so bad I had to stop the car. Today I believe that is exactly what he wanted me to do.

Since that experience I have seen a young female spirit on two occasions.

All I recall of her was her clothing. No facial features. Her first appearance she was wearing a blue floral print dress. Her second appearance she was in a yellow floral print dress. Believe it or not - the dresses was all I remember. She did not speak or make any jestures with
her hands or any body parts. I did not try to talk to her. I felt if she had a reason to appear before me she would take the initiative and make her request known. She did not and I have not seen her since.

I do not try to talk with the dead. I don't dwell on the spiritual world but I do believe. I have had a total of three experiences and if I am ever contacted again it will be at their bidding - not mine.

We don't have to fear the dead only the living.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:35 am 
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you are confusing "god" with a man called "jesus". the jews plight was historical


Quote:
the bible isn't the truth about anything, other than it's full of parables to teach mankind how to live.



Ok first, I am not confusing God the father and his son Jesus, you will have to explain to me how you could have thought that. Next, you stated "the bible isn't the truth about anything" Then went on to say "the jews plight was historical, and no one has doubted that". Ahhhhh thank you for proving my point. :D

Also you had said
Quote:
did you also happen to know that 90% of the bible was translated by european scribes who, for the most part, didn't understand how to speak or read hebrew?

Did you read the link I posted? I would like to see a link to where you found your information please.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ark and contradictions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:35 am 
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dee35ann wrote:
MGA: I will try my best to locate the information about the Ark being found. When I do you will get the information.
Jobot: Have you ever played Telephone at a party?
The Bible does not contradict itself. Take the first four books of the New Testament - Matt. - Mark - Luke and John. Four desiples who witnessed the same event. Each gave their own version.
No contradiction - confirmation that it did happen through the eyes of four different men.



I, too am very interested in this "confirmation that the Ark has been found." I'd love to see what you come up with.

As to your claim that the Bible does not contradict itself...ok. :roll: I really dreaded having to do some research just to get some contradictions for you. Luckily, there's google! I found a bunch of sites, mostly Christian ones trying to prove that contradictions aren't really contradictions. I was greatful for one site that listed a bunch of them for me, which I listed below. ONe thing the guy running the site said that cracked me up was, "He claims that the Bible is "full of contradictions," and often proposes a lengthy list such as the one we are about to respond to below. Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction." Okey-dokey. Well, here ya go.

Some contradictions:
1. God is satisfied/unsatisfied with his works
2. God dwells/dwells not in chosen temples
3. God dwells in light/darkness
4. God is seen/unseen and heard/unheard
5. God is tired/never tired and rests/never rests
6. God is/is not omnipresent and omniscent
7. God does/does not know the hearts of men
8. God is/is not all powerful
9. God is changeable/unchangeable
10. God is just/unjust or partial/impartial
11. God is/is not the author of evil
12. God gives freely/witholds his blessings
13. God can/cannot be found by those who seek Him
14. God is warlike/peaceful
15. God is cruel/kind
16. God's anger endures for a long/short time
17. God approves/disapproves of burnt offerings
18. God accepts/forbids human sacrifices
19. God tempts man/doesn't tempt man
20. God send lying spirits/doesn't lie
21. God will/will not destroy man
22. God's attributes are revealed/cannot be discovered
23. God is one/many
24. Robbery commanded/prohibited
25. Lying approved/forbidden
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned/forbidden
27. Killing commanded/forbidden
28. Blood-shedder must/must not die
29. Making of images forbidden/commanded
30. Slavery and oppression forbidden/sanctioned
31. Improvidence enjoyed/condemned
32. Anger approved/disapproved
33. Good works to be seen/not to be seen by men
34. Judging of others forbidden/approved
35. Christ taught non-resistence/taught and practiced physical resistance
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed/Christ avoided Jews for fear of being killed himself
37. Public prayer sanctioned/disapproved
38. Importunity in prayer commended/condemned
39. Wearing of long hair by men sanctioned/condemned
40. Circumcision instituted/condemned
41. Sabbath instituted/repudiated
42. Sabbath instituted because God rested/because God brought Israelites out of Egypt
43. No work to be done on Sabbath/Christ broke this rule
44. Baptism Commanded/not commanded
45. Every animal allowed for food/certain animals prohibited for food
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned/forbidden
47. Marriage approved/disapproved
48. Freedom of divorce permitted/restricted
49. Adultery forbidden/allowed
50. Marriage/cohabitation with sister denounced, but Abraham married his sister and God blessed the marriage
51. A man may/may not marry his brother's widow
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined/condemned
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended/discountenanced
54. Our rulers are God's ministers and should be obeyed/are evil and should be disobeyed
55. Women's rights affirmed/denied
56. Obedience to masters/obedience only to God
57. There is/is not an unpardonable sin
58. Man was created before/after other animals
59. Seed time and harvest never ceased/ceased for seven years
60. God/Pharoah hardened Pharoah's heart
61. All Cattle and horses died/all cattle and horses did not die
62. Moses feared/did not fear Pharoah
63. Plague killed 23000/24000
64. John the Baptist was/was not Elias
65. Father of Mary's husband was Jacob/Heli
66. Father of Salah was Arphaxad/Cainan
67. Thirteen/Fourteen generations from Abraham to David
68. Thirteen/Fourteen generations from Babylonian captivity to Christ
69. Infant Christ was/was not taken to Egypt
70. Christ was/was not tempted in the wilderness
71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount/on the plain
72. John was/was not in prison when Jesus went to Galilee
73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff and sandles/neither staves nor sandles
74. A woman of Canaan/Greek woman sought Jesus
75. Two/one blind men/man besought Jesus
76. Christ was crucified on the third/sixth hour
77. Two thieves/only one thief railed at Christ
78. Satan entered Judas at the supper/after the supper
79. Judas committed suicide by hanging/died another way
80. Potter's field purchased by Judas/by the Chief Priest
81. Only one woman/two women went to the sepulchre
82. Three women/more than three women went to the sepulchre
83. It was early sunrise/sometime after sunrise when they went to the sepulchre
84. Two angels standing/only one angel sitting seen by women
85. Two angels/one angel seen at the sepulchre
86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the tomb/only two days and two nights
87. Holy Spirit bestowed at/before Pentecost
88. Disciples commanded immediately after resurrection to go into Galilee/tarry at Jerusalem
89. Jesus first appeared to disciples in a room in Jerusalem/on a mountain in Galilee.
90. Christ ascended from Mount Olive/Bethany
91. Paul's attendants heard/did not hear the miraculous voice
92. Abraham departed to go to Canaan/did not know where he was going
93. Abraham had one/two sons.
94. Keturah was Abraham's wife/concubine
95. Abraham begat a son at the age of 100 years by God's providence/he then had six more sons without God's help
96. Jacob/Abraham brought the sepulchre from Hamor
97. God gave Abraham and his sons the promised land/they never received it
98. Goliath/his brother was slain by Elhanan
99. Ahaziah began his reign in the eleventh/twelfth year of Joram
100. Michal had five children/one child
101. David was tempted by the LORD/by satan to number Israel
102. Number of fighting men in Israel was 800,000/1,100,000, number of fighting men in Judah was 500,000/470,000
103. David sinned in numbering Israel/David never sinned except in the matter of Uriah
104. One of David's penalties for sinning was seven years of famine/there were only three years of famine
105. David took 700/7000 horsemen
106. David bought a threshing floor for 50 sheckles of silver/600 shekles of gold
107. David's throne was to endure forever/David's throne was cast down
108. Christ is equal/is not equal with God
109. Jesus was/was not all-powerful
110. The law was/was not superceded by Christian dispensation
111. Christ's mission was/was not peace
112. Christ did not/did receive testimony from men
113. Christ's witness of himself is true/untrue
114. Christ laid down his life for his friends/enemies
115. It was/was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
116. Children are/are not punished for the sins of their parents
117. Man is/is not justified by faith alone
118. It is impossible/possible to fall from grace
119. No man is without sin/Christians are sinless
120. There will/will not be a resurrection of the dead
121. Reward/punishment bestowed in this/next world
122. Annihilation/endless misery the portion of all mankind
123. Earth is/is never to be destroyed
124. No evil shall/Evil will happen to the Godly
125. Worldly good and prosperity/worldly misery and destitution to be the lot of the godly
126. Worldly prosperity a reward/a curse
127. Christian Yoke is/is not easy
128. Fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness/vengeance and fury
129. Longevity enjoyed by/denied to wicked
130. Poverty/Riches/Neither a blessing
131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment/vexation, grief, sorrow
132. Good name is a blessing/curse
133. Laughter commended/condemned
134. Rod of correction is cure for foolishness/there is no cure for foolishness
135. Fool should/should not be answered according to his folly
136. Temptation desired/undesired
137. Prophecy is sure/unsure
138. Man's life 120/70 years
139. Fear of man on every beast/fear of man not on the lion
140. Miracles are/are not proof of divine inspiration
141. Moses meek/cruel
142. Elijah ascended to heaven/none but Christ ascended to Heaven
143. All scripture is inspired/Some scripture is not inspired

On the site, if you click on the contradiction number, it'll give you exact quotes from the Bible. (If you scroll down just a little you can click on the numbers.)

(BTW, I did not look through the site, I simply copied the contradictions.)

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:20 am 
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Also, I see the bible as a history book too. Even if one doesn't believe in God does that mean that the Ramses spoken of in the bible didn't exist? How does that explain his tomb

you stated that "his tomb" in your sentence talking about god. no "god" was killed and buried anywhere, just a jewish man named jesus, who was considered an enemy of the state.

as far as Ramses....c'mon...you can't expect me to believe translated version of events thousands of years old re-writen by numerous men, can you?

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