Venus - I raised 5 children - worked full time - cared for my parents until their demise.

Not easy - never enough time to get everything done that needs to be done. You cannot make a living and stay on top of important issues that affect our daily lives and our future. Easy to take things out of context, thinking we have a whole picture.

I am dummer than day old dirt. I thunked I was fairly (dimmly bright) until I was introduced to this sight and the many threads (verrrry educational).

Lots and lots of very smart - free thinking folks on a wide variety of subjects. I love reading the posts -= sometimes I add a little nonsense - but I'd rather say little and let all think I am dumb as to talk and make believers of them.

I was neither a Democrat or a Republican. Politics is a crooked - dirty - nasty game evil people play for greed - power and control of the masses.
The politicians are worse yet.I was an Independent, voting for the one I felt would do the most good for everyone and our country's future.

One very important lesson I learned - TALK is the cheapest commody given to mankind. Those who hope to possess you and control you will tell you what they think you want to hear. Not these bright folks here. They back up their posts with facts. Welcome - hang tight and learn a lot.

After 12 years of Republican control in almost every top position in all 50 states - something bad was taking shape. The average citizen seemed to be losing everything. Homes - jobs - wages etc. etc. etc. Everything was being outsorced. We are becoming a service nation. Who's gonna move with their jobs for a lot less wages?

When Newt Gingrich stated anyone against Bush was an idiot - it was a wake up call for me. I may very well be an idiot, but thank goodness I am not a completly stupid idiot. Righ or wrong - I THINK FOR MYSELF.

The one thing I am bitter about - the fact my vote was wasted. BUSH was not elected in 2000 - The courts put the puppet in office. That threw the statement out the window - every vote counts. When you see BUSH's lips moving - HE IS LYING.

No offense intended here. Just one of those times I wanted to say something.

Deeann, you are about as 'dumb' as Edith Bunker. She had knowledge of the heart, and a heart of gold.

Maybe you don't post often, but when you do, it is always worth more than gold.

Venus:

I have only one question. Why do you support his decision to go to war?

Geez deeann, you aren't dumb. There are still millions of people in this country, who think they are really smart, that still can't understand the obvious fact that Bush lies constantly.

Newt Gingrich is a good example. He is supposed to be the "idea guy" for the GOP. He teaches a history class in which he makes up his own version of history as he goes along. He thinks men should be hunting giraffes instead of working in high tech industries. And he thinks women can't serve in combat because they get yeast infections from lying in ditches.

When this sterling example of regressive Republicanism tells you that you are an idiot for not supporting the Idiot in Chief, the smartest thing you can do is consider the source and laugh at his buffoonery.

Dee35ann, Thanks for the welcome and words of encouragement. I think you would make a great spokesperson for this site




For the same reason most people did when he stood before us and argued his case. We all thought there were WMD and to this day I still believe they were moved into Syria. Both sides voted to go to war and both sides stated those WMD existed. I continue to support the war mostly because we are THERE. I can't even begin to fathom the idea of pulling out now. There are days that I wake up and turn on the news and hear about all our boys that are being blown to pieces and my heart aches for their families. I get frustrated sometimes and most days wish none of this happened. But it has and now we need to stay in it to win it.

Is there anyone here that initially supported the decision?

I initially supported our entering into Afghanistan. It was not until a short time later that through my anger, my mind was able to open up and recognize the anomaly in the official story.

The funny thing is. I have knows for years that we would get attacked. I can remember a few years before, arguing this with a friend. He did not understand that what I was saying was this, We have screwed with the world so much eventually someone was going to screw us back. He could not comprehend this. In his mind our country was too strong for anyone to dare do this, and we were so great that they would never make it through our defenses. It appears that he was wrong.
Of course now there are legitimate and viable arguments out there over whom it was that broke our defenses, but we wont go there.

Not everyone thought there were WMD's in Iraq. The problem was that these people who had BEEN THERE and STATED THAT THIS WAS NOT TRUE, were shouted down as liar's and traitors and cowards. The feeding frenzy was on. No one listened to the voices that stated the reasons for invading Iraq were being fabricated and the facts were being lied about.

Every original justification for our entering into a war with this country has proven to be false. How many lies have these people been caught in?

At what point, after catching them in outright lies again and again, do we say to ourselves that we can no longer believe anything that has come from their mouths.

It is not that everything they have said is a lie, some things could be true, but how do we differentiate?

As I say time and time again. These people have PROVEN who they are. They have harmed a great many people based on these lies and they have systematically destroyed the laws of our Constitution.

How much more will it take for you to understand what I am saying?

Will you finally understand when martial law is declared? Will you be happy when you see someone like me led away in chains because I refuse to bow in fear to these criminals who now control us? Will you be happy when all of this wealth you think you own has been whisked away from you to fill the already overflowing pockets of the bankers and the corporations? What will it take?

How many excuses shall we allow ourselves in our justification's to perpetuate this madness that has overtaken us?

No matter what anyone on this site says, there is no one party that is fully responsible, they are all responsible, WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE for the actions our government has inflicted upon the world in OUR name.

Everyone say it.

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE, WE HAVE ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN AND CONTINUE TO ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN.

Do any of you think that, when the world has finally had enough of our shit, they are going to go house to house knocking on doors asking us if we were in support or opposition to our foreign policy's?

I will answer that for you. NO.

At what point do we stop playing with these so called leaders and say enough is enough?

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH,
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH,
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH,
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH,
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Open up your minds people. Throw away everything that you believe and start from scratch. As long as we keep acting with our preconceived notions in which we have become brainwashed into believing, thing will only continue to get worse. They cannot get better.

It is time that we look to ourselves and not to others to save us. It is up to us to understand it is WE who govern OURSELVES and by giving that TRUTH into the hands of another we become nothing but slaves, giving them the power to act in our name.

This government that I follow does not allow rape, murder, theft, greed, or anything else that we would consider to be evil. I WILL NOT ALLOW THOSE WHO THINK THEY RULE ME TO DO THESE THINGS THAT ARE AGAINST MY TRUE GOVERNMENT. I will fight them every step of the way.

Enough is enough.

Venus:


What do you consider a "win"? What are we trying to "win"?

No we didn't. Please speak for yourself. Scott Ritter was screaming at the top of his lungs for someone to listen to him when he said he personally saw them destroyed years ago. Unfortunately 3/4 of the population decided to listen to Bush and his bloodthirsty band of neocons instead.



Does that fairy tale assuage your guilty conscience.



By that rational we would still be in Vietnam.



Wow, are you conflicted! Your heart aches for our boys being blown up, yet you cannot imagine putting a stop to them being blown up?



Join the club. Most of us around here have been agonizing over your senseless bloody war since 2002.



Do you have a gambling problem?



I doubt you'll find many. Most of us are against the neocon game of war for fun and profit.

Sorry, this cartoon is a little dated, but you get the idea.

Sorry shoe, cartoon is a no-show.

On 9/11 I saw that this was a moment for us to change the way of history, by forgiving and turning the other ear to actually listen to what they were trying to say. We sent an e-mail to the whitehouse stating that now was the time to use tact and resolve to work out differences.

But the bloodlust was up to fever pitch and the cry for justice/revenge was as predictable as any lesson history has taught. That a group of Arabs who could barely fly Cessna's could fly state of the art planes and perform the manoeuvers that the black boxes state they did as well as the pentagon manoeuver being impossible- that is documented fact from pilots for 911 truth. There is no way events could have happened that day other than with American government foreknowledge and participation.

No way.

Everything since then has happened because of those lies of belief. They had no right to go into Afghanistan and they have no right to stay in Iraq now. These wars were set ups for other reasons than those stated by the Liars Club Of America. And the only people who believe that Saddam shipped WMD's to Syria is the sunday morning fear mongering evangelists, like Jack Van Impe. You do realize that a lot of the nerve agents he had have a short shelf life- Right?

From wiki- Even if he had shipped them, it has never been used and is past its shelf life anyway. So saying you believe that this happened is saying that it's just a gut feeling and nothing more.

Poorly researched and second hand information at best won't solve the problem, only create more problems. By believing in lies, one can find themselves making a "Korea" out of war, or following any old story that 'fits' what you need to know.

No, you can't. The time for spewing bullshit like that is long past. You either support the troops, or you support Bush and his war. There is no other option in this choice, it's one or the other. This illegal war of imperialism has drained our military, bled our treasury and every dollar that goes into it murders more of our soldiers and allows our infrastructure to crumble further. It's time for you to choose: America and her sons and daughters, or Bush and his war. Which one do you choose? As I said, you cannot choose both. If you support the war, and Bush, you do not support our troops. Be against our country and our troops if you will, by supporting this farce in Iraq, but have the guts to be honest about it.



Those who don't question the dictator or his war aren't all that many in number. As evidenced by the following:

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1 ... 40,00.html

http://www.ivaw.org

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature ... 0_400.html

http://www.ivaw.org/node/1040

http://www.peaceandjustice.it/soldiers-against-war.php

That's just a sampling.



No, you're not.



Sources?



When we're wrong, we have the guts to admit it. You, on the other hand, are so wrong it isn't even funny. But I suspect you're not the type who can show strength enough to admit making the odd screw up now and then. Like supporting a disastrous, illegal, immoral war.



I don't have to act like I know you; you've already made who and what you are quite plain enough.

Venus how old are you? one thing you should remember before you start bashing liberals is that THEY are your fellow americans. it cracks me up that from the party of "family values" the contempt and hostility i see towards liberals......your fellow americans. why would i want to be part of that. i see that youd rather pull your fingernails out than to vote for a democrat. glad to see your feelings. go ahead an start hating me now cause im a tree hugging, gay supporting, pro choice FLAMMING LIBERAL.

I am still looking for this answer from Venus.

What do you consider a "win"? What are we trying to "win"

Don't hold your breath sadie. Nobody can answer that question, and the neocons don't even try to answer it anymore. They've used up every rationale they can think of. When none of their excuses worked out, they just moved the goalposts so far back that no one can see them.

I don't know where Venus has been getting the completely false information that formed her opinions but I'm guessing she's a Fox Noise watcher, a rightwing talk radio listener, and/or a person who has allowed other rightwing supporters to form her opinions for her, perhaps relatives, coworkers, and/or friends. Republican talking points don't seem to be very successful anymore. Otherwise, Bush's approval ratings wouldn't be going through the floorboards.

Venus, if you're here to argue with us that you're right and we're wrong, you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of changing anybody's mind....not ONE. We're all discussion board veterans. We've been thrown off of more rightwing boards than we care to count because we're never given the chance we're giving you here.

Spend some time exploring the different forums and the threads that are in them.

Then consider these questions. They are good ones. See how many of them you can answer:

Robert J. Elisberg: '50 easy questions to ask any Republican'

Wednesday, July 12
Robert J. Elisberg, The Huffington Post

Anyone can ask tough, intricate, confrontational questions. But all that ever does is start an argument, and it gets people nowhere. On the other hand, these are...well, easy. These are friendly questions. These are questions that allow another person to actually explain their thoughts, and explain fully. And to do so in as comfortable, as simple a way as possible.

Without feeling attacked. Without feeling pressure. Without feeling no one cares what they have to say. Friendly. Easy.

Print them out, carry them around in your pocket, and the next time someone begins quoting from a Republican talking points memo, take the list out and ask.

1. What are the Top Seven best things that the Bush Administration has done?

2. Is the Iraq War going well?

3. When do you think Iraq might be able to "stand up" so that America can "stand down"?

4. For his part in the event, how would you rate the job the President did protecting New Orleans from devastation?

5. How do you think the rebuilding of New Orleans is going?

6. When Dick Cheney and the oil company and energy executives met in private to plan America's energy policy, how much of their goal was to benefit consumers?

7. Do you believe in the President's call for an Era of Personal Responsibility?

8. Since Republicans controlled the White House, Senate and House of Representatives for most of Bush's time as president, how personally responsible are they for conditions in America today?

9. Why do you think they haven't been able to find anyone who can verify that George Bush ever showed up for National Guard duty in Alabama?

10. Would you want Donald Rumsfeld to plan your daughter's wedding?

11. Are you aware that no government in the history of civilization, other than the Bush Administration, has lowered taxes during a war?

12. Are you married?

13. Do you personally feel threatened by gay marriage?

14. Since getting elected, do you think the President has been more a uniter or a divider?

15. How do you explain the President's approval rating going from a high of 90% to its current LOW level?

16. Do you like the government collecting personal data on you without a warrant?

17. How much money do you have in your bank account, stocks and investments?

18. What's your partner's favorite sex position?

19. If you have nothing to hide, why aren't you answering?

20. Should we build a wall along the Mexican border?

21. Why isn't anyone building a wall along the Canadian border?

22. Does that terrorist gang arrested in Canada count as a threat?

23. If you shot someone in the face while drinking, how fast would the police show up to arrest you?

24. If Donald Rumsfeld had planned your daughter's wedding three years ago, would the guests still be there?

25. Even if no laws are broken, do you think it's okay to reveal the name of a covert agent?

26. During your lifetime, approximately how often have you changed your mind?

27. Why shouldn't people dismiss you as a flip-flopper?

28. Where do you think the Weapons of Mass Destruction might be?

29. Where do you think Osama bin Laden might be?

30. Is it fiscally responsible to cut taxes, increase spending and create a $9 trillion federal debt?

31. Are you glad liberals passed such programs as Social Security, Medicare, the Civil Rights Act, women's suffrage, federal deposit insurance, unemployment compensation, rural electrification, child labor laws, minimum wages and the 40-hour work week?

32. What are the Top Ten best things that conservatives have given to America?

33. If you were on life support, would you want a doctor you'd never met making a diagnosis about you via remote television?

34. Do you think man-made greenhouse gases have anything at all to do with depleting the ozone layer?

35. If Donald Rumsfeld had planned your daughter's wedding three years ago, and guests were still there, how many factions would they now be split into?

36. How good is it that the terrorist Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi was killed?

37. Are you aware that in 2002 the Pentagon knew where al-Zarqawi was and presented three separate plans to kill him, but the Administration refused to act each time?

38. Is George W. Bush the kind of guy you'd want to sit down and have a beer with?

39. When he started talking about being a Born Again Christian, would you want to stay or leave?

40. Is Ray Romano the kind of guy you'd want to sit down and have a beer with?

41. Would you want him to be President?

42. Does the Administration have an environmental policy that benefits the environment?

43. Since George Bush campaigned for President strongly against nation building, in what ways are our actions in Iraq not nation building?

44. What's the maximum amount of time you'd want to spend alone with Dick Cheney?

45. After dismissing Saddam Hussein's old Iraqi army, was it a good idea to let them keep their rifles?

46. Would a policy that allows torture be something that makes you proud as an American?

47. Has the Mission been Accomplished?

48. Do you feel comforted that Dick Cheney is a heartbeat away from being President?

49. If Donald Rumsfeld had planned your daughter's wedding, and guests started fighting and were killed, would you expect to be allowed to view the caskets when they were returned home?

50. How glad do you think George Bush is that he's no longer active in the National Guard?


Source: The Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/

Members, add any questions you'd like to this list. It needs updating as there have been lots of SCANDALS within the BUSH ADMIN during the past year!

Everyone has said all the things I wanted to say, but just one more thing.

Venus, have you read the Project for a New American Century web site yet? Our war is spelled out very well there--this war was planned years before Bush came into office--right down to needing a 'Pearl Harbor type incident' to convince 'the people' we needed to go to war.

The information is in our news section--I think you would find it interesting.