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 Post subject: Myth in Bible
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:33 am 
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The space program has been busy proving what has been called
"myth" in the Bible is true. Mr Harold Hill, president of the Curtis
Engine Company in Baltimore, Maryland and a consultant in the
space program, relates the following development.

They were checking out where the positions of the sun, moon and the planets would be 100 and 1000 years from now. They do this so a satellite they send up won't bump into something later on in its orbits.
They lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite and where
the planets will be so the whole thing will not bog down.

While running the computer measurement back and forth over the
centuries, it came to a halt. The computer stopped and put up a red
signal. Something was wrong with either the information fed into it or
with the results compared to the standards. They called the service
department to check it out.The service department found a day
missing in space in elapsed time.

A Christian man on the team said, one time in Sunday School they talked about the sun standing still. They didn't believe him so he got his Bible -
went to the book of Joshua where they found this rediculous statement.
They found the Lord saying to Joshua, Fear them not, I have delivered
them into thy hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.

Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still, because he knew if darkness fell the enemy would overpower them. The sun stood still and the moon stayed and lasted, not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:12,13.

The scientists thought they had found the missing day. Going back to the computer they learned it was not close enough. In Joshua's day it was 23hours and 20 minutes.....not a whole day.

The Christian remembered somewhere in the Bible where it said the
sun went BACKWARDS. He went back to his Bible and read these words in 2 Kings that told the following story.

Hezekiah, on his death bed was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as proof.
Isaiah said, Do you want the sun to go ahead 10 degrees?
Hezekiah said, it is nothing for the sun to go ahead 10 degrees, but
let the shadow return backward 10 degrees. Isaiah spoke to the Lord,
and the Lord brought the shadow 10 degrees BACKWARD,
10 degrees is exactly 40 minutes.

23hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in Second Kings
makes the full missing day in the universe.

References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,13 - ll (2) Kings 20: 9-11.

Remember: amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:37 am 
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http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.asp

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:21 am 
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lefty wrote:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.asp


oohh....sick burn!

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 Post subject: sun stood still
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:47 pm 
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Thank you Lefty for the research.

I'm sorting some paper work I've had stashed in boxes when I ran across this article. I thought it might prove interesting to see the reaction it might bring to TVNL's and from the various contributors.

I do have faith and I do believe, just as everyone has that right. I look at it this way. The Bible may well be a myth and it may not. If the way I believe makes me a better person then I'm not hurting anyone to believe there is a higher entity. If it all is a lie then I'm still not hurting anyone and least of all myself.

I would never try to convince anyone I am right and they are wrong concerning any issue at hand - the choice belongs to everyone.

In my case I do not have to choose a lesser of two evils. Either way I travel can induce no pain nor destruction to me or anyone else. Whether we choose to believe or not, to follow the golden rule would make this a better place to live. Respect for ourselves and one another is a good way to be. Just treating all the way we wish to be treated would soon conquer greed, lust, hatred and the selfish pettyness we must endure in our daily lives.

NYGG; No not a sick burn - just some facts by another scorce of information. It's true we all believe what we choose to believe. That's how our pea brain works and our brains are pea size. We just don't understand how to cultivate the whole mass to become geniuses. I guess that's how groups are formed. More followers than leaders. Good or evil we all must have our leaders. I guess I'm strange - I march to a different drum - just because someone says it's so, doesn't prove it's correct - we all believe in something.


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 Post subject: Re: Myth in Bible
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:13 pm 
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dee35ann wrote:
Remember: amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.


Remember: Since the ark has never been found and proved to exist, MYTH can define it to be prefect.
We know for a FACT about the Titanic.

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 Post subject: Re: sun stood still
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:36 pm 
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dee35ann wrote:

I do have faith and I do believe, just as everyone has that right. I look at it this way. The Bible may well be a myth and it may not. If the way I believe makes me a better person then I'm not hurting anyone to believe there is a higher entity. If it all is a lie then I'm still not hurting anyone and least of all myself.



Really? Imagine the sheer loss in time? The ceremonies, the holidays, the praying, etc.. And the possible loss in finances through tithing.

And loss loss in 'brainpower'. Instead of opening up your mind to the realities of the world, you instead focus on this myth.

Its truly cheating yourself. Like Carl Sagan said:
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
- Carl Sagan

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:37 pm 
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Deeanne, I like you very much and respect your wisdom considerably. Posting that was not a slight to you at all, so please don't take it as such.

I researched it like I do most of the things I get emailed to me all the time from people determined to save me from myself. I really wasn't posting that debunking to cause anyone to be mean or condescending towards Deeann.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:48 pm 
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The belief in a God is not necessarily followed by the practice of a religion. This is what ruins God for far too many. I have a sure and certain knowledge of the existence of a Higher Power and I chose to call Her God. This has been corrupted in my life when I have succumbed to the practice of any religion that tries to define the indefinable aspects of God. Serenity only came when I stopped trying to define Her and began to live to learn everything I could as I feel that the real goal of life is knowledge and wisdom.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:22 pm 
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A Proud Liberal wrote:
I have a sure and certain knowledge of the existence of a Higher Power and I chose to call Her God.


Knowledge is a combination of 2 things. Logical justification and truth.

I would really like to hear how you manage to resolve either.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:13 pm 
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Perhaps some of the problems we have come from poor translations. The King James version is touted as reliable, but a cursory search of the life of James reveals he was a homosexual himself. In my search I came across this-

THE BIBLE AND HOMOSEXUALITY
AN INTRODUCTION
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm

Quote:
The use of the word "homosexual" in English translations of the Bible
The word "homosexual" generally refers to sexual orientation. People have one of three orientations:

Most are heterosexual: they are sexually attracted only to members of the opposite sex.
A minority are homosexual: they are sexually attracted only to members of the same sex.
A smaller minority are bisexual: they are attracted to both men and women, but not necessarily to the same degree.

The term dates from the late 19th century, when human sexuality began to be studied as a science.

There is no term that means homosexual orientation in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts of the Bible. The authors of the Bible did not understand sexual orientation and thus did not write about it. Biblical authors had little or no understanding of same-sex committed relationships. Rather, they assumed that everyone was heterosexual, but that some heterosexuals engaged in sex with persons of the same gender. Thus, when you see one of these words in an English translation of the Bible, it is important to dig deeper and find what the original Hebrew or Greek text really means.
As with most belief systems, we seem to be happy to be told what to believe and not what the reality of the belief was actually based on. A thorough understanding of the times and what was, is essential to interpreting anything from the past.

I think that good people are just that and would be such even without a structured belief system. One can evolve a sense of fairness and justice without being told what it is to be such a person. We are social animals and have evolved traits that find comfort and security in the herd. Religion offers that same sense of security and justice that has helped shape us over millions of years. Fear and loneliness make us desperate for a sense of belonging, and the rewards for obedience could be as great as eternal life with god, if one only believes. With a reward like that for belief, how can one pass it up? (Google Pascal's Wager)

So there is danger in interpretation and that is where we should exercise caution and take more than someones word on it. Laziness and poor research are byproducts of belief so make sure you research thoroughly before you take anyones word on what one should believe.

APL brought to light the idea of god as a sexual entity. Do you see god as male or female or as something else?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:30 pm 
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nygreenguy wrote:
Knowledge is a combination of 2 things. Logical justification and truth.

I would really like to hear how you manage to resolve either.


Truth is in truly in the eye of the beholder, thus I resolve my knowledge through personal experience. The belief in God is the most personal of human beliefs. This is where religion fails, its insistence that there is only one truth. Every human must decide for himself or herself, or they abrogate an essential part of their humanity. One of my core beliefs is that God is the only entity that can be all things to all people while not having to be the same to any two.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:41 pm 
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A Proud Liberal wrote:

[size=15]Truth is in truly in the eye of the beholder, thus I resolve my knowledge through personal experience.
Oh wow, I couldnt disagree more. The truth is not subjective. There is only 1 truth, and it doesnt change depending on what we want or what we think feels good.

And personal experience is by far the worst thing to base truth on. Imagine if we did base truth on personal experience. Blacks would all be on welfare, all people from the south WOULD be stupid, the earth WOULD have been created in 6 days, there WOULD be WMD's in Iraq.

See, our brains are quite deceptive organs and often times we believe that which is simply not true, or did not happen. (this is why eye witnesses are some of the worst type of evidence). Our personal observation are just not good enough to count as evidence.

Quote:
The belief in God is the most personal of human beliefs. This is where religion fails, its insistence that there is only one truth. Every human must decide for himself or herself, or they abrogate an essential part of their humanity. One of my core beliefs is that God is the only entity that can be all things to all people while not having to be the same to any two.
Well, yeah. Anytime you can fabricate a belief system, you can also control the rules in order to avoid conflict, contradictions, etc... But any god belief fails to ever be logically consistent, and thusly must be discarded.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:13 pm 
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A Proud Liberal wrote:
Truth is in truly in the eye of the beholder, thus I resolve my knowledge through personal experience. The belief in God is the most personal of human beliefs. This is where religion fails, its insistence that there is only one truth. Every human must decide for himself or herself, or they abrogate an essential part of their humanity. One of my core beliefs is that God is the only entity that can be all things to all people while not having to be the same to any two.


I would like to ask for some clarification on this one APL. (The bolded sentence above) Do you mean that considering whether god exists or not is an essential part of humanity or that belief in god is an essential part of humanity?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:52 pm 
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nygreenguy wrote:
Oh wow, I couldnt disagree more. The truth is not subjective. There is only 1 truth, and it doesnt change depending on what we want or what we think feels good.

And personal experience is by far the worst thing to base truth on. Imagine if we did base truth on personal experience. Blacks would all be on welfare, all people from the south WOULD be stupid, the earth WOULD have been created in 6 days, there WOULD be WMD's in Iraq.

See, our brains are quite deceptive organs and often times we believe that which is simply not true, or did not happen. (this is why eye witnesses are some of the worst type of evidence). Our personal observation are just not good enough to count as evidence.

Quote:
The belief in God is the most personal of human beliefs. This is where religion fails, its insistence that there is only one truth. Every human must decide for himself or herself, or they abrogate an essential part of their humanity. One of my core beliefs is that God is the only entity that can be all things to all people while not having to be the same to any two.
Well, yeah. Anytime you can fabricate a belief system, you can also control the rules in order to avoid conflict, contradictions, etc... But any god belief fails to ever be logically consistent, and thusly must be discarded.


lefty wrote:
A Proud Liberal wrote:
Every human must decide for himself or herself, or they abrogate an essential part of their humanity.


I would like to ask for some clarification on this one APL. (The bolded sentence above) Do you mean that considering whether god exists or not is an essential part of humanity or that belief in god is an essential part of humanity?


Lefty I can answer you first—I refer to the belief in the existence of God or the belief there is no God or the beliefs of those that straddle the fence of agnosticism. All three carry with them their implications that humans carry with them in living their lives. In a true pluralistic society, there would be a respect for others that would preclude the proselytization that is rampant among the religious bigots of all stripes.

Greenguy answering your objections could be easy by me saying that my personal beliefs are what they are and your filters (objections) will not change them in any way. I view them as a proselytization of atheism. It was never and will never be my intent to change someone to my point of view but let me try to answer your objections point by point:


nygreenguy wrote:
Oh wow, I couldnt disagree more. The truth is not subjective. There is only 1 truth, and it doesnt change depending on what we want or what we think feels good.

And personal experience is by far the worst thing to base truth on. Imagine if we did base truth on personal experience. Blacks would all be on welfare, all people from the south WOULD be stupid, the earth WOULD have been created in 6 days, there WOULD be WMD's in Iraq.


Yes, a person's view of the truth is based on PERSONAL experience, for what else does an individual have with any degree of certainty. Descartes said one must doubt everything first before one can start a base on which to build your belief system. This is where he came up with "I think, therefore I am." Some have become so enamored with this thought that they believe everything beyond themselves is just the product of their imagination.

Experience might be the worst thing because it is the only thing one can use to base your view of the truth (belief system). This is NOT based on what feels good but on empirical hard evidence. I can never know all blacks are on welfare because I can NEVER know all blacks and all the African-Americans that I know personally are NOT on welfare. I can never know all people from the South are stupid because I can NEVER know all Southerners and know some very smart people from the South. I can NEVER know if the world was created in six days for two reasons: first, I was not there and secondly, all the hard scientific evidence I have examined (experienced) says otherwise. The wishful thinking of the Bush war crime cabal is not knowledge or truth, it is patently false by the lack of WMD's in Iraq, there is no empirical evidence of their existence.


nygreenguy wrote:
See, our brains are quite deceptive organs and often times we believe that which is simply not true, or did not happen. (this is why eye witnesses are some of the worst type of evidence). Our personal observation are just not good enough to count as evidence.

Well, yeah. Anytime you can fabricate a belief system, you can also control the rules in order to avoid conflict, contradictions, etc... But any god belief fails to ever be logically consistent, and thusly must be discarded.


We all fabricate or build our own belief systems. The word fabricate carries an unfortunate connotation of falsehood. I will answer you with the following statements:

I have experienced the existence of God to my own personal satisfaction that it can never be doubted. That being said, it is NEVER my intention to convince others of this personal truth.

I am convinced that the eyewitness testimony used to convict Nazi war criminals was sufficiently real enough that I have no doubt that the hangings carried out as a result were justified.

I submit to you that IF "But any god belief (system) fails to ever be logically consistent, and thusly must be discarded," that your belief in NO god is a god belief system and needs to be discarded.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:04 am 
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A Proud Liberal wrote:

I have experienced the existence of God to my own personal satisfaction that it can never be doubted. That being said, it is NEVER my intention to convince others of this personal truth.
That right there is the first problem. If anything is beyond doubt, then that belief is irrational and biased. Everything is subject to change.

Quote:
I am convinced that the eyewitness testimony used to convict Nazi war criminals was sufficiently real enough that I have no doubt that the hangings carried out as a result were justified.
But there was also LOADS of actual evidence.

Quote:
I submit to you that IF "But any god belief (system) fails to ever be logically consistent, and thusly must be discarded," that your belief in NO god is a god belief system and needs to be discarded
Incorrect. In the absence of evidence, disbelief is the default state. Otherwise it would be logical to believe in faries and unicorns.
Atheism is, by definition, a lack of belief and therefore can not be a belief system. It makes no assertions.

But since you do concede that logically inconsistent beliefs should be discarded, im curious how you justify your own beliefs?

Actually, I guess that would require me asking more question....perhaps tomorrow. Im REALLY tired!

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