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 Post subject: Religion-too strange to take seriously-spinning the whirrled
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:21 am 
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As if believers aren't dizzy enough, they have places to express their spun minds. Check out these whirlling dervishes-

20 controversial moments in recent religious history.
Quote:
The Blasphemy Collection
The concept of blasphemy seemed for some decades to be in decline in the West, but not any more. It may be useful to look back at some recent cases of militantly religious outrage...

Rated by
Vulgarity –the piece shocked through its conflation of the sacred and the profane
Criminality –the piece contravened laws in a given country
Religious impact –the work caused outrage from religious leaders
Political impact –speeches were made by governments, laws were created or changed.
Deaths – outrage at the work led to the death of one or more people
What- no south park?

http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith/20 ... emy-c.html

Spoiler alert- The #1 choice is---. Jyllands-Posten Mohammed Cartoons--- :roll:

Next is godtube, a religious version of youtube-
http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhil ... ites-.html
Using children to spread their propaganda :roll: :roll:

This kind of nonsense can go on and on- and it does with constant alacrity, as if it has some real relevance.

Here's a relevant bumper sticker-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phantomscr ... 119246952/

What's your version of senseless religiousity.
How about a muslim Barbie?
http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith/ba ... index.html

People tend to exemplify the relevance of their beliefs by adhering them to reality and merging it as a fixed ideology. Good thing they're too dizzy from being spun around by charlatans and flim flam men to notice the fleecing they're receiving.

As long as it makes people happy, I guess they don't care how dizzy they get. Just keep spinning. Edward Bernays built his craft observing people in their moments of desperation and learned that spin is the best waty to keep the whirrled confused. It works- fantastically.

Great stories here about religion gone wild, all around the world.

_________________
Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

People don't choose to be dishonest
the choice chooses them

Now I know how Kusinich feels.


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 Post subject: Dizzy zealot
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:47 pm 
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DO.g's - There are zealots and fanatics in all walks of life and concerning many subject and topics.

I got interested in studying the Bible when I was a very young girl.

Here's the topic that got me very interested. Some would argue that it is a contradiction. It's not -- it's actually confirmation.

Adam and Eve were the first to be created. Their first two sons (Cain and Abel) were the first offsprings. Cain slew his brother - and was marked so all who saw him would know he slayed his brother and was banished into the wilderness - (brace yourself) where he knew his wife. Contradiction right??????? Wrong. Study and you will learn - God created all four races - Red - Yellow - Black and White. He created little people - average sized people and giants.

Man has never learned to live together in harmony. There are always some who think they are so superior and super intelligent that their opinion is all that matters. If anyone does not share their outlook they are ignorant and deserve to be made fun of. I don't judge these playground bullies. I pity them, because they have a lot to learn.

I do believe and I hope I'm not a dizzy zealot. But I accept all as they are and it is not my job to try to change them. I certainly make fun of no one for any reason. In fact I've gone through life defending the underdogs.

I don't think new laws should constantly be made. Just enforce the ones already on the books. A hard task since I think a lot of our biggest thiefs, liars, drug pushers, and crooks are members of a police force. Just like some of the biggest hypocrites can be found in churches, especially on Sunday's.

I've had a husband,a brother-in-law and a nephew on police forces and in sheriff departments. I speak with experience and no I am not standing in judgement of them.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:01 pm 
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I don`t believe in myths like you do and I am not judgmental. I link my limited personal experiences with the bigger political picture, like we all should do. But no one ever taught us to think for ourselves, so we have to depend on time worn adages to shape our experiential existence.

If you believe these stories as you interpret them or were told to interpret them, then that is very harmful. It means that you use your limited experiences to explain what you think life is really about.

I read the bible from start to finish and it was one of the most boring books I have ever read. I fell asleep so often that I thought it was a cure for insomnia. Nice history lesson, if you leave out all the references to godly interference, but you have to be pretty shallow or young to believe it. That is why they get you when you`re young and a clean slate.

Just another brutal rise of another race that thinks they`re better than everyone else. It helps to justify people`s judgmental attitudes since they have the real god and he has given his children the right to judge others. Such bullcrap has led to our present problems in life. What did it do for the Jews to call themselves the chosen people:?: The treatment for them was nice wasn`t it. And don`t even go to their condemnation by god as the reason. Arrogance greed and pride are more important factors, and people don`t need no god to tell them what`s right or wrong. We have our moral compass and experiential internal lens compass that will do that.

I depend on my moral compass and lens to make my decisions- I decide what`s right or wrong, and I see the bible and man made religions as the real problem to our rising above our needs.

So as I`ve said, If one needs crutches to hold their arguments up then they should be prepared to be toppled over. Believing in myths as guides throws reality right out the window, with the tub, baby and the bathwater. It is poison to man and woman to believe this crap in the bible. A lot of angry insane old men setting the rules down for us to believe :?: Have we as humans accepted that this paternal world is our only choice :?: Are you a woman misogynist like the Adam and Eve story :?: That is what we are to believe if you believe the bible or any other man made religion.

Sorry, doesn`t make any sense. My research has shown me that the early stories in the bible go back way before this bible was written and the stories were stolen from other races, predating the history of the hebrews-semites. They stole the stories from people they conquered or encountered and made them their own.

It`s all fakery and charlatanism. Nothing more. Even the jesus myth was based on at least 15 other religions that had a similar birth story, including Octavius Caesar. The Hebrews have a history of stealing other peoples stories and putting them to film, sorry- biblical text!

Perhaps ypu should read this article to start to dispel the myths that have been planted in our heads. Here`s an example of the brainwashing we all go through when we are a clean state ready to be instructed as children-

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/euro28.htm
Quote:
The New Testament (Matthew 2:13-23) suggests Herod, King of Judea (40-4 B.C.) the Great killed all Bethlehem (Ephrath) children two years and under. It also contends that Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt as a result. The detailed Judea chronicles of the life of Herod, King of Judea (40-4 B.C.) the Great record his killing of many officials including his own wife and children but nothing of the Biblical allegations. The birth of Jesus story is known to have been added some time after 100 A.D. Some suggest the only reasonable conclusion is that (Matthew 2:13-23) is a much later Roman Catholic fabrication to counter the growing stature among the Judians of the accomplishments of Herod, King of Judea The Great (40-4 B.C.). Another more plausible alternative is that this story represents the killing of tens of thousands of children in Carthage (Tunisia) as sacrifice to their God Baal during the 4th to 2nd century B.C. It is noteworthy to remember that many of the Hebrews before Moses too as late as 570 B.C. also followed the God Baal. The God Baal demanded the sacrifice of children. The story of the child sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham was likely added to Genesis to purge the Hebrew history of their historical child sacrifice practices. Jeremiah 19:5, 7:31, Ezekiel 20:31, Micah 6:7, Leviticus 18:21, 20:2, Judges 11:30, Isaiah 57:5,9, 2Kings 16:3, 1Kings 16:34. Some Hebrews are likely following this practice even to this time period.


I have said before that one should research the times and see what was, not what one interprets today from past experiences linked to the present day without checking the anacronisms. If you don`t research it then you depend on your limited world view to dictate the substance of your existence and what you believe. That is a recipe for disaster and we don`t need confirmation of stories that are based at best in myths, to establish what one should think today. We need to grow up as a civilization and look past the manufactured lies that shape us into these hateful, angry, judgmental people we have become.

Try to read this and start getting informed. There is a whole world of real history being hidden by clever, crafty, greedy self interested charlatans out there that want to turn us against each other rather than learn to all get along. Don`t fall for their traps and snares!

It`s just too far fetched to be taken seriously. If one does, then look at the world around you and see what is really happening. Not a pretty picture for things that preach peace and love, is it :?:

_________________
Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

People don't choose to be dishonest
the choice chooses them

Now I know how Kusinich feels.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:23 pm 
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Everyone knows the first successful humans were made of maize. Here is the story of two unsuccessful attempts by the creator, Heart of Sky. Of course, the first human prototype, made of mud, was a hopeless flop. And the second inferior human model, made of wood, was destroyed in the aftermath of a great flood.

Popul Vuh

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 Post subject: Believe or not to believe
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:23 pm 
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DO.g's - Believe it or not - your decision. No one led me to the Bible and told me what to believe. I personally saw my mother start and end each day reading from the bible. In truth I saw her end her days reading because she was usually up before anyone else in the house.

I really got interested in the Bible because I had some questions I wanted answers for. As far as reading a bible from cover to cover is a complete waste of time. I do not feel a whole bible is meant for any one person in particular. If however you go seeking answers to questions - you will, can and certainly find the answers you seek. What has been-is and is to come is there.

There was a baptist minister visiting my father. My father asked the preacher a question. The ministers reply was - I have read my bible through many times and there is no answer to your question. I directed the minister to a particular book and verse or scripture in the bible he had on his lap. He did look and read - the rest was a comedy - he could not leave the house fast enough. Maybe not the answer to my dads direct question but the very words the minister said were not in the bible. Now tell me how a learned man of the cloth could possibly miss a positive fact?
Perhaps he never had an interest in the particular subject.

Does it make any sense?

Shoeless; Every woman knows she was created first and GOD is a woman. We only allow you men to think you are the first and foremost.
After all where would the average male be with no woman in his life?
Maybe only a gleem in another mans eyes?!

Peace all.


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 Post subject: Re: Believe or not to believe
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:54 pm 
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dee35ann wrote:
Shoeless; Every woman knows she was created first and GOD is a woman. We only allow you men to think you are the first and foremost.
After all where would the average male be with no woman in his life?
Maybe only a gleem in another mans eyes?!

Peace all.


I agree. The Earth is mother to us all, the world's oldest religion.

Gaia: The Earth Mother

Oh Goddess, Source of Gods and Mortals,
All-Fertile, All-Destroying Gaia,
Mother of All, Who brings forth the bounteous fruits and flowers,
All variety, Maiden who anchors the eternal world in our own,
Immortal, Blessed, crowned with every grace,
Deep bosomed Earth, sweet plains and fields fragrant grasses in the nurturing rains,
Around you fly the beauteous stars, eternal and divine,
Come, Blessed Goddess, and hear the prayers of Your children,
And make the increase of the fruits and grains your constant care, with the fertile seasons Your handmaidens,
Draw near, and bless your supplicants.

~Orphic Hymn to Gaia~

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Venus of Willendorf
Upper Paleolithic Period
(circa 20 000 to 30 000 BC)


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 Post subject: Mother Earth
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:18 pm 
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My mother was a very wise woman. She planted and raised two crops a season. Fed the whole neighborhood and canned everything not given to needy friends and neighbors.

She planted according to the signs. We were working in her garden and a neighbor asked mom what she was planting. She told him and I really don't recall what it was. I was too stupid and immature to take notes at the time.

He told mom he had planted his potatoes. Mom told him it was too early for potatoes. Mom said he would not raise a large crop. He laughed at mom and said - you put it in the fertile ground and it will grow. To make a long story short. He did not raise a big crop of potatoes and this same farmer would check with my mom before he planted any money making crops. He admitted he knew nothing about the signs but he was willing to learn.

In my eyes it takes a big person to admit to being wrong and is willing to learn something new. I guess that's life huh?!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:05 pm 
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So in other words you didnt read anything Ì posted for you and no one can convince you to do the research. First you say that no one led you to the bible and then you say your mother spent her time reading it. Was that not example :?: And were you given any other choices to believe in :?:

We are just programmed to fall back on our points of reference always- it`s how the brain operates. One day you find yourself repeating some old worn out passages in time and that becomes another point of reference for your brain. It`s simple psychology- just plant the seeds of what is normal and they remain planted, keeping people from growing and progressing. It`s like the whole world is sufferinmg from arrested development. Fear, jealousy, judgment and anger can cripple anyones thinking, and we are definitely inundated with absurd thoughts about what is real and what isn`t. That`s why TV works so well on us because our brain can`t tell the difference between what`s real and whats imagined.

The absurdity of belief is beyond reason and if we as humans can`t shake these myth stories from our minds then we are rooted to do whatever has been predicted for us. This is how foolish and absurd belief is. We are victims of our choices and can never rise above that standard.

My mother was nuts about her bible and she read it daily. Towards the end of her life all she could read was Psalms, because it talks about getting even with people over and over again. She was crippled by her beliefs, but what drove her to believe was what really crippled her. An abusive husband, both mentally and physically and being told she was crazy and no freedom to grow, just oppression of being poor and helpless with no hope, saddled with 5 children to raise while the old man spent his time working and avoiding the children. If you watch nanny 911 you will see this type of depressing existance is commonplace among people, even among those with money, so it is a problem that spans all classes. She eventually had a stroke and that cleared the past from her mind and she was able to let go of her crutches and be free mentally for the first time in her life. She no longer has any interest in the bible- it fell away from her just like it should with all of us, so we can live free of its oppression and no longer be mental cripples depending on some non-existant force to help us through this.

Like I said, the reality of believing in stories and myths may console and allow one to judge his fellow human to our individual standards, but it does nothing to contribute to the solutions to the dilemma`s we face in life. That is why some of us exercise our freedom of choice and others condemn us for choosing the obvious solution. The whole world is dizzy from their normalicy. Haven`t you read my thoughts on freedom at the bottom :?: Do you understand what it actually means :?: It means that the whole world is crazy for thinking what they do is normal.

Now about what shoeless said. If you break down the words in the prayer you can see the truth in it. At one time we were a matriarchal society, and this was most of our history. We revered and honored womne and gave them a voice in decisions since they were the source of life.

Quote:
Oh Goddess, Source of Gods and Mortals,
All-Fertile, All-Destroying Gaia,
Mother of All, Who brings forth the bounteous fruits and flowers,
All variety, Maiden who anchors the eternal world in our own,
Immortal, Blessed, crowned with every grace,
Deep bosomed Earth, sweet plains and fields fragrant grasses in the nurturing rains,
Around you fly the beauteous stars, eternal and divine,
Come, Blessed Goddess, and hear the prayers of Your children,
And make the increase of the fruits and grains your constant care, with the fertile seasons Your handmaidens,
Draw near, and bless your supplicants.

~Orphic Hymn to Gaia~
This makes much more sense to me than 100 bibles could ever articulate with its lies.

When I read this I see that it is Gaia who created gods and that is true! Lets face it, if we didn`t create these religions then we wouldn`t have any gods. The gods fit our need and not the other way around. The rest of the poem is just beautifully describing the reality of life. The version that men came up with to explain why its OK to lie, cheat, steal, rape, plunder and kill as if it is some god given right to do so.

She may be tough but where would we be without her :?:

_________________
Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

People don't choose to be dishonest
the choice chooses them

Now I know how Kusinich feels.


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 Post subject: Why
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:02 pm 
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I am sorry your mother had it so rough and life got the best of her.

I can see where your bitterness comes from and why you hate religion so much.

But you chose to allow all the examples set before you to cripple you, so much so you feel compelled to swing out at anyone and all who does not believe as you do.

I think you are a very intelligent male and superior in many ways. But none of us are so super good and so far above our brothers and sisters that there is no room to learn anything more. I myself pray I never stop learning. We use only a small fraction of our brain, it is said. But I'm a firm beliver if one has not experienced all kinds of lessons, then it indeed is hearsay or someone elses opinion.

I think I've said before - we either want to be like all we encounter or we want to be complete opposites. Thats the very first lessons we receive, from our families.

Where were you in the line of your siblings? My mother had seven children - she raised six. One died shortly after birth. I'm number six on the totem pole. I had five examples to watch while I grew up. No, I was not spoiled like most say the baby's are. I've always been a stubborn cuss and very independant. At one stage of my life - I was so stubborne I would cut my own nose off to spite my face. Until I realized I was really hurting myself. We learn as we mature.

Thats what life is all about anyway and we only pass through it one time.
Its a shame we waste so much of our time and have no chance to get it back.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:54 pm 
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you dont have a clue about my life. i saw it all and i resolved it all. I certainly don`t need your sympathy. I don`t live under oppression or delusions about reality.`

Bitterness is for those who can`t come to terms with themselves anf d their own lives. bitterness is for the judgmental not the judgesd. I don`t judge people I Know them. And to me you seem fairly typical of most people. No adventure, no imagination, just stick to the path well used and don`t cause a stir outside of your moral parameters.

I was the miff ddle child so i knew oppression and ahow to get revenge, learned by threats and bribes and fought my way throught he whole structure of social norms. Unless you do these things you have never lived to question the other side of life. And by the other side I mean the o called sane world where most people pass judgment on whether one belongs in their little realm or not.

But i grew up from that and learned ther truth aboit life- Thast it;s mostly built on lies and fabrications and lots of quaint old anachronisms.

Quote:
I've always been a stubborn cuss and very independant. At one stage of my life - I was so stubborne I would cut my own nose off to spite my face. Until I realized I was really hurting myself. We learn as we mature.

Thats what life is all about anyway and we only pass through it one time.
Its a shame we waste so much of our time and have no chance to get it back.
And yet you claim you`re still a stubborn old cuss. Perhaps in your growth you didn t mature, and you`re still hurting yourself.

Perhaps if you you had been less stubborn and more understanding you wouldn`t have regrets about what you wasted. Time is what it is and when lost can`t be recaptured.

How do you know we pass through it only once :?: Did god tell you :?:

_________________
Completely sane world
madness the only freedom

An ability to see both sides of a question
one of the marks of a mature mind

People don't choose to be dishonest
the choice chooses them

Now I know how Kusinich feels.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:22 am 
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great thread............when i get time i'll come back to contribute.

time to get ready to go to work...............gotta keep the power house runnin.

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 Post subject: Myths
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:28 pm 
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So the Holy Bible is a myth. I'm ignorant and stupid for believing such drival, oh and I'm a whirling idiot.

More people should be stupid whirling idiots. If nothing else we might learn how to conduct ourselves to be considered human beings, and maybe how to treat one another. Maybe we might even learn how to live in peace. You say people like me use religion like a crutch, but you know people and you judge not. That's one of your opinions or beliefs. But I on the other hand believe if you put so much trust in simple mans word - just maybe you might be the whirling idiot using mans words as a crutch to display a form of studied and learned intelligence. But whose opinions? Your's or someone else's? Is there a slight chance you may believe in the wrong source for truthful and accurate information? Men are not and will never be gods. They have proven time again how they can take something good and turn it into something evil.

Pity the true idiots who actually believe they can live any way they choose. Do anything their heart desires, for or against each other, lie, cheat, steal, commit murder, commit fornication, deny christ and then when life bites them in the rear - they have the audacity to point a finger and blame the enity who gave them them the choice to live as they chose.
Read Acts 5:29.

How reliable is mans manifestations? Doesn't all believe only what one chooses to believe? Do we choose to believe what coincides with our own thought process that enables us to live and do exactly as we please, so long as it is us dishing out the dung and not on the receiving end? I think the saying is - "Don't do as I do but as I say". Man's words.

The words in the Bible are consistent. They do not flip flop and change from day to day. They are misinterpreted, taken out of context and used and mis-used to prove a point of the author. You say you have read the bible and it's dull and boring and it puts you to sleep. Have you ever tried finding an answer to any spesific question? Since you already have your mind made up before you start reading, why bother (?), unless you need sleep. You give your alms to mans words and consider God's words as myths. I think you may be serving a wrong master. Not judging - just opinion.

I'm not trying to change you and you can't change me. But thank you for showing me the 8th and 9th beatitude is a reality for crazies like me.

You accused me of not reading the links you provided for me. Sorry you don't know everything. When I tried to pull up yors links, all I saw was one black screen. But since it was probably one of your man's theories, I wouldn't want to waste my time any way.

If one is unable to form their own opinion - then to this ignorant old woman it's hearsay.

I serve only one master and his word is a very reliable crutch for me. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Myths
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:09 pm 
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dee35ann wrote:
The words in the Bible are consistent. They do not flip flop and change from day to day.


Please be more specific. Which bible are you talking about?

This one?

If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.- exodus 21:23-21:27

Or this one?

If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.- Luke 6:27-31

I'm so confused.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:05 am 
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Great example, shoe. When I read the consistent statement I was also struck by this idea of the bible being consistent and spent a while tonight looking for the right thing to post. You did much better than me and much more succinctly.

The bible is one of the most inconsistent popular books I've certainly ever read.

As usual, I will extropolate and bore you I am sure, but I really, really hope that someone takes the time to read this article that I am about to quote from. I have posted it in its own thread a few months ago and it only got a response from Shoe and Cat. Its very relevant to this discussion and to the legitimacy of the whole Jesus myth altogether.

Quote:
One of the problems faced by Christian scholars is that there is no record of Jesus' existence in any contemporary source. The earliest literature concerning him was written by Paul, who never knew him or anyone else who might have known him, and who never heard anything about his life story. Paul mentioned none of these now-so-familiar details, which were added much later by unknown writers who pretended to bear the names of various disciples, and who sprinkled their writings with mythic data gathered from sacred-king traditions of contemporary Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Persian, and Levantine salvation cults.

Educated theologians know this perfectly well, yet they maintain the pretense of apostolic authorship and keep the truth hidden from lay congregants. Undeniably, Christian leaders have a vested interest in maintaining the myth.

The synoptic gospels now accepted into the canon are only a small remnant of perhaps hundreds of proto-Christian gospels extant during the first few centuries B.C.E. and C.E. Also, they bear the marks of extensive interpolation, revision, and reinterpretation added by church authorities centuries later. As reference works, the New Testament writings are hardly more reliable than fairy tales.


...

Realizing that the Jesus myth was really a concatenation of pagan ideas and practices, early Christian fathers decided to account for this by calling all the previous gods demons, and declaring that Satan in his omniscience had foreseen the coming of the true Christ, and had invented all these earlier imitations just to confuse people.18 Even St. Augustine had to admit that his religion existed "from the beginning of time," and came to be called Christian only after the lifetime of Jesus.19

Gospel teachings attributed to Jesus have been found in earlier texts, often word for word, some--like the famous Beatitudes--in Buddhist scriptures. The Golden Rule was not a Christian teaching, but a Tantric Buddhist expression of karmic law, repeated in the proverbs of Egypt's Goddess Maat, the Mother of Justice, and those of Greece's Goddess Dike, ruler of fate, and those of the Jewish sage Hillel.20 Nothing truly original has been found in any of the Jesus traditions, and the wonder-tales that used to compel belief because of their very incredibility are now dismissed as crude anachronisms persuasive only to the most naive and credulous minds.


I could go on and on quoting this wonderful and extremely well researched article. I will, instead, stop and hope that those who haven't done so already, will go and read this article in its entirety.

http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2007/aug/walker.php

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:05 am 
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MAN im loving this......

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