Just a few notes on truth and proof, for the fledgling truthseekers. As most of you are on the way up the slippery slope, it is your mission to investigate, but not to ignore the realities that life throws our way. Casting off the absurd and suggestive, like conventional wisdoms, religions, what our parents teach us, is a given as they are mostly based in fear of death or the attempts at understanding of the unknown- as in everyone wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die, aliens are here psychosis we adopt from birth, and along the way. Realities don't include hysteria or suggestions, like ghosts or the supernatural assumption that the god we have adopted has any place in reality. These are just absurd notions of suggestive persuasions, fluff filler at cocktail parties, designed for our compliance and assurance that the world is an unknown and obedience is important. These tenets hold no grasp to real proof or truth. Science is our closest bet on what is happening, as it prefers to base its decisions on trial and error, working towards a plausible conclusion, even though it is a profit based field, as is religion and politics. In other words they care about profits before people, but I tend to respect science over the other two.
Akl- Actually, there is a lot more proof to back up an approach of some type of moderating intellegence in the universe than there is to back up a pure athiest's arguments, but that isn't the point. There is no proof for or against, and atheism is a BELIEF. To say that a spiriutuality is a lie, or a belief in a lie is way outr of bounds, dude. Off hand, I would say that atheism hasn't taught you much about tolerence and compassion.
Your comments are once again total bullshit. the concept of an organised, watchmaker type universe has been refuted for over 100 years as bunk. That we live in an area of the universe that supports life, at this time, is more likely a mere coincidence of time and space than it is a clockwork design. We are here now, so get used to it. There is more to chaos and the space between than your simple mind can grasp. You're fond of quoting buddhism, how about " the universe is but a mere illusion".
I always say that "Sometimes you have to worship the god you have, not the one you want." Be that as it may, like mga I don't wan't to regress into a theocratic discussion on the whereabouts of this black hole called belief, which like so many black holes, has been the birthplace of the concept of universal creations and other similtudes. The latest theories on string theory and dark matter are more closely related to what is measurably happening to the universe.
gOD's are a mystery best forgotten in our superstitious past. We have grown beyond this primitive concept, but it keeps us adhered to myths and fiction better than any other invented reality we can come up with. It is to laugh at. A speculative hope filled guess at best, it can be used to drum up hatred and bigotry any time it is required. A herd glue. Sheeple need it.
There is no proof the universe is expanding. There is a ton of conflicting evidence, actually. It appears to be expanding, that is a theory, not a fact. Although I don't really find much satisfaction in the static universe theory, it has a sizable amount of evidence, and many very respectable astronomers consider it *more likely* than expansion. Further, the eventuality of every atomic particle in the universe being as far apart as it can get (the cold death of the universe) is still a theory. This will lead to a collapsing universe. Faster than light travel must be possible, since there is no planet with life anywhere near our vicinity, and we have been visited at least once, and no one is likely to travel for thousands of years on the off chance of finding something interesting. Current research aims to create a way to *abolish mass*, since it is mass that creates the barrier. Some experiments have already been done that have possibly lowered mass. We are still many centuries away from the kind of power we would need to manifest this on anything larger than a sub atomic particle, but none the less, 50 years ago a computer cost several million dollars, so who knows what will happen in 100 years.
There is proof about expansion and dark matter/energy. I will give you some more info on this further on.
Absolutely. Truth is a relative phrase. There is no universal truth, no fact that exists in all places at all times. There are only possibility waves that collapse when a certain energy level is reached. Miracles happen every day (actually, 4 times a day) and every one of them is within the eventual reach of reasoning. Magic is only science that hasn't been explained.
Absolute truth is "out there", we haven't put it together yet. It may not be ours to fully discover, but it definitely doesn't encompass some gOD concept , that absorbs the purpose of discovering it, by its magnanimous sense of meaning overpowering the reason. There is an explanation for everything. We just aren't privy to it. Yet.
And so called "miracles are fabricated or natural events that haven't been explained. Like ghosts and aliens. Fabrications of wishful, hopeful, empty, depressed, desperate searching souls, trying to validate their excuses for their empty meaningless existences, their fear of death and lack of purpose. "There has to be more to this". Why?How? That is what we're here to ask and try to figure out, after all.
Like the reasons we adopt phony gods as a sense of purpose and direction because we have no real direction in our quest for truth and knowledge, so we make up a truth that makes sense and allays our fears.
The day the Exorcist came out, a christmas day, 40 people applied for exorcisms. No one really cared much before that. The power of suggestion and fabricated fear.
Actually, there is a lot more proof to back up an approach of some type of moderating intellegence in the universe than there is to back up a pure athiest's arguments, but that isn't the point. There is no proof for or against, and atheism is a BELIEF. To say that a spiriutuality is a lie, or a belief in a lie is way outr of bounds, dude. Off hand, I would say that atheism hasn't taught you much about tolerence and compassion.
--Proof? What proof? Show us your proof. What "A lot more proof"? At one point you speak of truth here, then you throw out more fluff bullshit. Atheism is a belief structure, that is correct, based in what is to be believed. Just because one doesn't believe the absurd notions put forward by the present consentual god being, doesn't mean one sees things the way it's structured for one to believe things. Don't tell me you believe the absurd little fairy tales in the bible? I don't see where a tiny mind like yours, as some kind of moral accounting judge gets off on thinking somehow you hold some kind of degree in truth judging. Thats like saying you have learned how to judge truth by believing the bullshit the bible spews, as if it has some merit in truth. Talk about no tolerance and compassion. You think Capitalism is tolerant and compassionate. Hah ha ha. Now that would be a miracle.
Proof please for your silly watchmaker theories, please. As for me being an atheist. What makes you an expert in what I believe. Just because I don't adhere to your concepts of a watchmaker god or purport to believe in an excuse for hate, murder and destruction of others culture and beliefs, and the theft of their wealth and resources by a god or gods that claim to be stronger and better than someone elses god or gods, doesn't justify you trying to identify my beliefs as atheist. I have very strong beliefs that are grounded in reality. Care to review my posts sometime and criticise me. You are welcome to. Since you know nothing about me, get real. I think that the reality of people that engage in this kind of branding, is to show a weak irrascible terpitude towards others that invariably reflects who THEY really are: and you branded yourself as intolerant and without compassion. A phony weak kneed capitalist opportunist who only feels compassion when the "Spirit" hits you. Like so many phony christians out there. Not that you're a christian, you're too wishy washy to decide even on that, or commit to an honest answer.
The soldiers standing over the bodies of burning corpses, shouting taunts at Taliban soldiers to come out, as their god is weaker, and this is what their beliefs get them. The TV pictures of starving Africans, homeless people, tsunami victims- so donations are made to help. but out of that, only a small percentage makes it to the victims, as you sit esconsed in your privilege and whiteness with your god and chicken leg firmly planted up your white privileged ass. This is the American way.
Forcing your god, the concept of a dead saviour, which you helped to kill, as a reminder to those that oppose, that "If we'd do it to him, You're next!"
Comply or else. Resistance is futlile. We are the smart bomb!
Some choice. Your god concepts are no better than any throughout history, as you marketed Animals, spirits, Zeus, Jupiter Mars, Baal etc. as the real ones at the time. It is just the next great deity to claim the top seat, that is all, so who cares- they're all the same bullshit. Top god is really the top DO.g. Just an excuse to wage wars and feel safe at home.
There is no proof the universe is expanding. There is a ton of conflicting evidence, actually. It appears to be expanding, that is a theory, not a fact. Although I don't really find much satisfaction in the static universe theory, it has a sizable amount of evidence, and many very respectable astronomers consider it *more likely* than expansion.
Gee no proof. The only non proof is your absurd statements based on no proof. More Fluff. The only thing that can be proven to be non proof is the bible. Based on total faith and hope in the absurd.
Google in "Expanding universe dark matter". You only get "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,690,000 for Expanding universe dark matter. (0.53 seconds)." Man, What is the contents of your brains? Kidneys?
Miracles happen every day (actually, 4 times a day) and every one of them is within the eventual reach of reasoning. Magic is only science that hasn't been explained.
There's your kidneys at work again. You base your ideas on the kinesthetic. Not real. Kidneys may look like brains, but they certainly don't have the same function Urine trouble if you think they do. Miracles happen at a fixed rate? Something to do with quantum mechanics and the law of averages? Where do you get your facts from? A cracker jack box? 4 times a day? More filler? What gives? Sister Teresa is a fine example of fabricating miracles to get her in the "Book of Saints". Have you any idea what nonsense they used to get her in? She was aware near the end of her life as to what they were up to. Miracles. What bogus hokum will you come up with next.
Famous quotes from Sister T.
The Wisdom Of Mother Teresa
AIDS: The retribution for improper sexual misconduct.
POVERTY; It is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot. The world is much helped by the suffering of poor people.
HOMELESSNESS; The problems facing us are due to the fact that we are too distant from Jesus.
UNEMPLOYMENT; First we must learn to love one another.(This one almost makes some sense)
ABORTION; Is the great enemy of peace.(?)
OVERPOPULATION; There is no problem of overpopulation, only [of] gOD's will.
The 'kindly' little nuns bedside manner was demonstrated during a filmed interview, where she told of her attendance to a patient suffering unbearable pain from terminal cancer.
Smiling at the cameras, she told of her counsel to the patient. "You are suffering like christ on the cross, so jesus must be kissing you."
"Then please tell him to stop kissing me". he said.
From- 'The Missionary Position' By Christopher Hitchins.
The womans' obviously a saint and could perform 'miracles'. Just not on this poor unfortunate. Why do I bother with you. You ignore everything I say, about compassion and caring, as you adhere to your cognitive dissonance and privilege. You have been brainwashed and absorbed into your absurd concepts. Your hegemony and pedagogy are complete as to make you impervious to reality and its concepts. Probably think you have to not disappoint your parents and be a failure in their eyes. You don't have to live your life according to their standards. Look at the hopeless world they built and left for you and me. You are actually free to make your own path. You just can't figure out anything outside the box you've found as your comfort zone. Life, liberty and the pursuit of your own concept of hedonism. You're obviously not worth the effort, so I may as well give up on you. You have given up as you say that "we don't live in that world YET", and become one more volunteer slave for the system, instead of imagining a world, abetter world that we could create out of this mess. The time IS now and we CAN do it. Don't be so negative in your gred concepts. Lennon asked us to "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can, No greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man". We have that in our power. We just prefer to think it is unattainable because it advantages us, For now.
Try saying something somewhat realistic if you're going to post, not something based on faith and hope.
proof is what one wants to believe. a bible, for example, is not proof to me, whereas for another, it may be all they need.
You're so easily swayed this way and that it's a wonder you aren't seasick on a daily basis. Wishy washy.
Alk- The more deeply we uncover reality, the more there seems to be some sense of order. In the last decades even the realm of choas has been revealed as layers of order. For the atheist, this comes down to the Turing test. How can you be sure that the order is the result of random factors and the usual and expected abberations of chaos, and not directed, even if that direction is no more than the input a simple fractal formula? Simply put, there is no test. While I tended towards atheism in my younger years, I cannot manage it anymore. I have to admit, the order present in the Universe may have a conscious source, and that is, in its most basic form, a definition of God.
I find the most concise work is in the theories put forth in David Bohm's research on implicit and explicit orders, as well as his work on non-locality, a response to the EPR paradox. To me, some of it has so much in common with Taoist thought that I can agree with Josephson, who said of it (if it proves accurate, much of it has yet to be tested) , at the very least, it seemed to be on the verge of putting the concept of consciousness into a scientific framework. His work, though largely theoretical in nature, has been variously vilified and praised by his peers. He has attracted such names as Einstein (who praised his "Quantum Mechanics" as the best description of the subject), Paul Davis, and Nobel winner Brian Josephson. His work is not to be taken lightly, and the implications of his work, particularly his theory of implicit order, are astounding, especially in light of recent developments in Superstring and Chaos Theory.
If there is some interest I would be glad to summerize his work, I am actually quite familiar with it.
Gee what a great idea. Please summarise for us. How about some bullshit knowledge for us based on your favorite subject- " I Don't know!" But then fill it up with more shit that makes no sense. As for chaos having order. All structure has order at its minutest form(micro, alpha), otherwise it would not exist(Macro, omega). This doesn't mean someone or something structured it. It is just what makes it be, it exists from its basics. Just like you or me. So you are basically saying nothing here. As per usual.
The problem, for me, comes down to what IS God? My definition is *the consciousness that directs the order of the Universe* and so, if Science were to discover,for instance, that all the order of the Universe was based on a fractal formula, or based on the same type of ordering as DNA is in life (my favored theory), this would fill my definition of God ( I believe it would do likewise for the Taoist). I don't imagine God is or even COULD be an entity that can be addressed, I agree with Jim on that one ("You can not petition the Lord with Prayer"). God is, to me, a concept that expresses the order implied by the Universe, the singular *universal truth* if you will allow it.
You never give up spewing verbal diarrhea. Look up at the top of the page. It says"Learn to spot Deception" I have learned how to spot you and your garbage. White privilege, supremacist. You're not a fool as you claim, for a fool sometimes still reasons truth out. This is a TRUTH site, so why are you here? Is being an idiot more to the point of your purpose, as you sway this way and that with your meaning, plagiarising one idea and fitting it in to some fractal context that doesn't make any sense, but to reward you and your views about your non commitment to the realities in life.
Miracles happen every day (actually, 4 times a day) and every one of them is within the eventual reach of reasoning. Magic is only science that hasn't been explained. The rate at which miracles occur is an average of reported events. It has been variously reported (even in the MSM) but I think Talbot's work on Holographic theory has a fair bit of evidence in it. Dossey covers it in his books ad nauseaum, as well as that moron Weil. They count as *miracles* spontanious remission and or healing (like the guy who went from full blown dying of pneumonia AIDS to HIV negative in something like a week, I have met and talked to this person PERSONALLY as well as reviewed his history, and its true, he did heal a most serious condition). A miracle is anything that is *unnatural* or *supernautral* according to our current view of the physical world. I am not implying it will always be so. Some day these *miracles* may be daily events, as common place as "take two Motrin and call me in the morning", but as of today science has NO IDEA what happened. And I am unwilling to discount anything, the fact is we don't KNOW what happened.
We've gone over this crap a few times. All can be explained, but to the simple mind, like yours, it seems like something real. Illusion and the mysteries of the universe.
Miracles happen at a fixed rate? Something to do with quantum mechanics and the law of averages? Where do you get your facts from? A cracker jack box? 4 times a day? More filler? What gives?
Try saying something somewhat realistic if you're going to post, not something based on faith and hope.
The theory of an expanding universe is just that, a theory. It stands beside the theory of a static universe, and both are, as I said, theories. I don't care if you get every web page on the internet saying otherwise. In fact, I just posted a link on a thread of comments in favor of a static universe, which pointed out the top 10 problems with an expanding universe. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that the expanding Universe theory is more satisfying, but it is still just a theory. Sorry.
Sorry you are, because once again you're wrong. You want to believe in vaguely stated concepts because it substantiates your pretentious ideals of prejudice and privilege as a white, hetero, middleclass, advantaged American.
Perhaps you should read thishttp://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 322-1.html
White Dwarf? What's that? How does that have to do with anything?
Now I know that you demand proof but you can't get it all right all the time, so when theories are exposed as truth, the facts must be definitive and precise. Unfortunately this isn't always an option we can exercise, but we can only believe what is presented as real. Take the concepts you have for an expanding universe, and a static one. You see a difference and it must be one or the other. What if it is both? The latest concepts state that some parts of the universe are static, closer to the Big Bang, while the outer regions are expanding faster away from it, thus leaving an area that is perhaps going to collapse, and another that is racing away, like a smoke ring escaping critical mass. The universe in this concept, is kind of shaped like a bell. It may be a theory, BUT SO WAS THE PLANETS REVOLVING AROUND THE SUN AND THE EARTH BEING ROUND. They were all proven to be fact, despite religious beliefs and restrictions, the opposition of nay sayers etc.
By the way, feel free to leave out the insults. They add nothing to your arguments, and mostly make you look immature. I invite you to question, to be skeptical, be angry, whatever spins your wheels, but some of your comments go over the line, and I really find them uncalled for.
Yeah, well start saying something real and I'll be very respectful. If you have no truth to give, then just shut up. Truth hurts, don't it. Like I said, I've got way too much to do, much more important things, but I just can't stand your bullshit, so I'll give you this to mull over.
Like it says-
"1/2 the truth is still a lie. Don't be fooled. Learn to spot deception. An informed opinion is a wise opinion. GET INFORMED; GET WISE.
Good luck Alk- you need it.
Crimson or Alky said- "While I rarely get to where I was trying to get to, I usually find I get right where I need to be."
Alky said- "Yeah, me too. I actually have started doing that. Oddly enough, it seems to work."
Yeah sure does. There and no further. Sure works, wishy washy.